Rowing 2K sub 7 min or running 10K flat sub 40 min?

[Oldcolonial]

I think it's possible for you to be fit for both at one time. You'll be missing that final 3 to 5% you need to really achieve your potential by not training many months for one sport.

I was a fairly good college runner. I ran 31:32 for 10k on the track. That was obviously done by only running as training. 60 to 90 miles a week with mega intensity.

I'm a old codger now. I'm 39 and I discovered the erg about a year ago. I've never taken it seriously enough for more than about 6 weeks at a time to really know my potential but I rowed 6:37.

Anyway, I run and erg about the same amounts now. For me I felt like shit running for the first several weeks of doing both. My legs were tight and I felt like a meat head! Well, after 4 or 5 weeks of doing it I started feeling good doing both.

I'd just do as much slow base mileage as possible and some tempo work using both running and erging. Your engine won't be super specific but you'll be aerobically super strong. Then I'd pick some races and try to get a little more specific in for whatever your event is starting two or three weeks out. You may not reach your full potential in either but it's not like we're trying to win the olympics here. MIx it up, train hard and let it rip on race day. It's all good fun.

Bend, it sounds like we have similar backgrounds. I too ran in college and ran similar times. I am very much encouraged by your 2K row time though which is one I have not been able to come close to. I have been working at it for a while and have not been able to get below 6:58 (early 2015). Some of this may be that I too am an old codger at soon to be 55. My goal for the year is a 5:30 mile run and a 7 min 2k row which are roughly equivalent in terms of performance level to the 40 min 10 k, 7 min 2K row proposed in this thread. I see these as challenging but achievable goals for the year.

[Rod]

My goal for the year is a 5:30 mile run and a 7 min 2k row which are roughly equivalent in terms of performance level to the 40 min 10 k, 7 min 2K row proposed in this thread. I see these as challenging but achievable goals for the year.

Nice running there OC, I'm hoping to run a Sub 6 minute mile and row a Sub 7 2k after September when I turn 60. My running is way off that at the moment with my best recent mile being 6:14 on a tarmac path in a park. I'm hoping to get under 7 mins for 2k soon though with the English Championships coming up on the 5th of February. Good luck with it, I'll be watching your progress with interest.

Maybe we could have a separate ''Runners Thread'' for those of us that run as well as use the erg? we could talk about how our running is going much like we do our erging on the ''Training'' thread?

[hjs]

I think it's possible for you to be fit for both at one time. You'll be missing that final 3 to 5% you need to really achieve your potential by not training many months for one sport.

I was a fairly good college runner. I ran 31:32 for 10k on the track. That was obviously done by only running as training. 60 to 90 miles a week with mega intensity.

I'm a old codger now. I'm 39 and I discovered the erg about a year ago. I've never taken it seriously enough for more than about 6 weeks at a time to really know my potential but I rowed 6:37.

Anyway, I run and erg about the same amounts now. For me I felt like shit running for the first several weeks of doing both. My legs were tight and I felt like a meat head! Well, after 4 or 5 weeks of doing it I started feeling good doing both.

I'd just do as much slow base mileage as possible and some tempo work using both running and erging. Your engine won't be super specific but you'll be aerobically super strong. Then I'd pick some races and try to get a little more specific in for whatever your event is starting two or three weeks out. You may not reach your full potential in either but it's not like we're trying to win the olympics here. MIx it up, train hard and let it rip on race day. It's all good fun.

Bend, it sounds like we have similar backgrounds. I too ran in college and ran similar times. I am very much encouraged by your 2K row time though which is one I have not been able to come close to. I have been working at it for a while and have not been able to get below 6:58 (early 2015). Some of this may be that I too am an old codger at soon to be 55. My goal for the year is a 5:30 mile run and a 7 min 2k row which are roughly equivalent in terms of performance level to the 40 min 10 k, 7 min 2K row proposed in this thread. I see these as challenging but achievable goals for the year.

31.5 10 k s are serious business, lots better than a sub 7 2k, but rowing and running don,t match well, most strong rowers are mediocer runners, often cycling matches better. To be good at both you need to be relative light, but not be too small. Top long distance runners lack enough muscle.
Top lightweight rowers proberly can run pretty ok.

Having a solid low bodyfat % would help a lot, ergers not seldom are not overly lean. A 100 kg rower will have a hard time running, although he can br pretty usefull on the erg.

[Oldcolonial]

Rod, you may find that a race setting with others looking to put up a similar performance on a track has a whole lot of value. Funny, I was training to run sub 5 at 50 and ended up just missing that mark. the 5:30 at 55 is a bit ahead of the glide path to a 6:00 at 60.
I would be interested in participating in a runners who row thread / part of the forum. I am not sure where I fall in terms of being a runner. I ran reasonably fast 25 - 30 year ago. I was very highly specialized and adapted to running. On an age adjusted basis, I might consider myself comparably fit today but with a much more balanced profile of competencies.

[Rod]

Rod, you may find that a race setting with others looking to put up a similar performance on a track has a whole lot of value.

It was in a race, there were plenty of us trying to beat each other! I run on the track too in the local Masters league for my club. There are not many Mile races though as the 1500 is the standard distance in most meetings.

I'd say you qualify very well as a runner....of any age!

Glad you like the idea of a ''Runners Thread'', I'll get it started so let's see how it goes.

[Cyclingman1]

I've always considered running to be the "core" fitness activity. I'm not talking about jogging. If one is a trained runner: intervals, hill work, tempo runs, LSD, one has a big leg up on getting into other endurance activities. I recall Frank Shorter, the famous US runner a few decades ago, briefly training for and entering the US duathlon [run, bike, run] championships. He killed everybody. His fitness level was out the roof. Rowing does require more upper body strength. But I say a really good runner, who has at least some upper body strength, with higher SPM will do quite well on a rower, especially 2K. To the original question. I'm far removed from physics, but a 150lb person running 6:27 mile pace will burn around 20 kcal/min. The conversion to Watts is 1 kcal/min = 70 Watts. 20 kcal/min = 1400 Watts. A sub 7 min 2K is around 300 Watts. I'm not sure how to apply that data, but it sure looks like a good runner has the energy to row well.

[Griparn]

Thank you guys for your comments, much appreciated! As it now are the coldest months here in northern Sweden I will have to focus more on rowing as I dont want to run indoors.

Tuesday was the first distance rowing. 5 K. (as I said I will try a modiefied Pete Plan)

Time: 20:16
SPM: 19
Avg HR: 168
Max HR: 175

I tried to row slow and controlled but I think I might have overrated my condition and set of first 1K in 1:58.5. Too fast I soon realized, but after around 7 min mark I got in a more controlled speed. Looking at my PB for 1-1.5 years ago I did 5K in 19:06 with avg HR at 160 and max HR at 178. Still ways to go but in some months time I will be there. Two days after the rowing I got sick so I will have to cancel this weeks rowing intervals and maybe also the planned running session on sunday.

[bend3333]

Bend, it sounds like we have similar backgrounds. I too ran in college and ran similar times. I am very much encouraged by your 2K row time though which is one I have not been able to come close to. I have been working at it for a while and have not been able to get below 6:58 (early 2015). Some of this may be that I too am an old codger at soon to be 55. My goal for the year is a 5:30 mile run and a 7 min 2k row which are roughly equivalent in terms of performance level to the 40 min 10 k, 7 min 2K row proposed in this thread. I see these as challenging but achievable goals for the year.[/quote]

Yeah, I think I've got a fairly unique background. I grew up racing mountain bikes and running x-country and track. I ran in college for two years. Got injured far too much, was incredibly frustrated and decided it was time to race bikes again. I trained like crazy and was lucky enough to have a good bit of talent on the bike. Made it to a be a Pro but wasn't good enough of a pro to make reasonable money. Quit racing all together at age 25.

The last 14 years have been nothing but damage control! Strangely enough, I fell in love with the weights. So I have literally put on 45 pounds of muscle (I'm now 203lbs at 6'2"). All the while usually just running 15 or 20 miles a week so i could eat like an idiot and not balloon up.

As strange as my background is to get me here I think I probably have some reasonable talent for rowing. I just don't really have the desire to train balls to the wall and compete at really anything anymore. I'm pretty content just staying in the "damage control" mode so I can look and feel good.

I just ordered a Concept 2 for my house yesterday so maybe that will change things though!

Best of luck to you in your goals. A 5:30 mile is no joke for your age! Really impressive.

[bags]

I've always considered running to be the "core" fitness activity. I'm not talking about jogging. If one is a trained runner: intervals, hill work, tempo runs, LSD, one has a big leg up on getting into other endurance activities. I recall Frank Shorter, the famous US runner a few decades ago, briefly training for and entering the US duathlon [run, bike, run] championships. He killed everybody. His fitness level was out the roof. Rowing does require more upper body strength. But I say a really good runner, who has at least some upper body strength, with higher SPM will do quite well on a rower, especially 2K. To the original question. I'm far removed from physics, but a 150lb person running 6:27 mile pace will burn around 20 kcal/min. The conversion to Watts is 1 kcal/min = 70 Watts. 20 kcal/min = 1400 Watts. A sub 7 min 2K is around 300 Watts. I'm not sure how to apply that data, but it sure looks like a good runner has the energy to row well.

Not quite the right calculations for watts as running is one continuous effort and flywheel of an erg is essentially going at least ~50% slower at the start of the stroke than the finish. Not to mention the inefficiency's in timings and the fact that the power has to be transmitted from the legs through the core to the arms. Also energy expenditure doesn't = watts output by any means, . Traditional 'runners' bodies wouldn't fare well I don't think. However get some of the shorter track runners on and i'm sure they'd fly, usain bolt is a massive man, all the sprinters have good upper body strength relatively, at olympic level I'd put short distance track runners slightly faster than sprint cyclists over 2k. . the average club runner would probably do just as well one their first go on an erg as a club cyclist, a regular gym goer or martial artist. given a few pointers on technique i'd put a cyclist above a runner. Pushing against resistance is much different than just moving your own bodyweight (i.e cycling/rowing v running).

Just my 2 cents

[Oldcolonial]

Bend, it sounds like we have similar backgrounds. I too ran in college and ran similar times. I am very much encouraged by your 2K row time though which is one I have not been able to come close to. I have been working at it for a while and have not been able to get below 6:58 (early 2015). Some of this may be that I too am an old codger at soon to be 55. My goal for the year is a 5:30 mile run and a 7 min 2k row which are roughly equivalent in terms of performance level to the 40 min 10 k, 7 min 2K row proposed in this thread. I see these as challenging but achievable goals for the year.

Yeah, I think I've got a fairly unique background. I grew up racing mountain bikes and running x-country and track. I ran in college for two years. Got injured far too much, was incredibly frustrated and decided it was time to race bikes again. I trained like crazy and was lucky enough to have a good bit of talent on the bike. Made it to a be a Pro but wasn't good enough of a pro to make reasonable money. Quit racing all together at age 25.

The last 14 years have been nothing but damage control! Strangely enough, I fell in love with the weights. So I have literally put on 45 pounds of muscle (I'm now 203lbs at 6'2"). All the while usually just running 15 or 20 miles a week so i could eat like an idiot and not balloon up.

As strange as my background is to get me here I think I probably have some reasonable talent for rowing. I just don't really have the desire to train balls to the wall and compete at really anything anymore. I'm pretty content just staying in the "damage control" mode so I can look and feel good.

I just ordered a Concept 2 for my house yesterday so maybe that will change things though!

Best of luck to you in your goals. A 5:30 mile is no joke for your age! Really impressive.[/quote]

Bend;
at 200# you should be very well suited to rowing. we will see have to see about the 5:30. Right now, 400's and 600's at that pace feel really fast.

[Griparn]

Lost some days due to being sick, but Im now back at it.

Last two sessions:
5k
19:55 (1:59,5)
Avg Hr: 168 max: 181
Spm: 21
Df:95

5,5km
21:45 (1:58,6)
Avg Hr:163 max: 178
Spm: 21
Df:94

Im feeling improvements, especially the last session felt good. Next session this weekend will be 6x500m 2min est. Those interval sessions are brutal, but i know big gains come from doing them.

[Griparn]

A little update on my mission.

I've only been doing rowing since last post. I follow the Pete Plan Beginner to some extent, but I do less work per week. Some people might argue you have to put in lots of meters to improve, but I think quality is better than quantity as long as I improve. I use my HR monitor and times to judge how I improve.

Right now Im at 7km on the distance work.
Last session were:
7K
27:35 (1:58.2)
Avg Hr: 162 max: 176
Spm: 21
Df: 99

Since I started with 5k I can feel and see some great improvements already. With 7K being 2k longer and Im more than I second faster in 500m pace, holding the same rating and much lower work for the heart it seems.

Even though Im getting better at longer distances I think I need more speed work and ability to suffer from lactate build up. The intervals are really tough I think and I have still some way to go before I can get sub 7 min.

[Griparn]

Is it ok to post training sessions in this thread how these goals progress or should I post in the thread "What training have you done today"?

[hjs]

Is it ok to post training sessions in this thread how these goals progress or should I post in the thread "What training have you done today"?

Its your thread so proberly better even. In the daily thread your training will soon dissapear in thin air.

[Griparn]

You are right hjs, it will be easier to follow here.

11/3

7K day. Was still feeling DOMS from squat work earlier this week. I will start doing one squat session each week. These are not heavy squat, I will focus on high reps, trying to mimic the repetitions of a 2K. I do bodyweight squat + a 10kg plate on my neck and shoulders. This week I did 100 + 50 reps in a session. In the end I want to get to approx 210 reps in one set. Hopefully it will help at least some in the driving phase in the stroke.

Anyhow I was suprised how good it felt rowing.

7K
27:27 (1:57.6)
Avg Hr: 159 max: 177
Spm: 20
Df: 100

Next workout will be 800m x 4 with 3 min rest.