Drag Factor

[Edward4492]

I know this one has been beaten to death. But a recent work out got me to thinking. Doing (for example) 5000m @ 20r/ 200w at a 93drag compared to a 100 drag. Is there any advantage to rowing (from a training or strength building stand point) at the heavier drag? I know these are very low drags by most standards. And I have to go with heavier drags for the short stuff, under 500m, as there seems to be a limit as to how hard I can pull on the low drag (around 1:30 for a few strokes).

By any definition the amount of work done is identical (200w 20r; I would assume length per stroke). But the higher drag feels extremely heavy to me. I'm just wondering if there's any value to staying with the higher drag for the 20r sessions. Will it make me stronger?

[G-dub]

I have often wondered if the reason you can't get back to previous speeds you were able to do was because your DF is so radically low. It would seem that at you are only able to use legs at the DF you use. But there is always so many different points of view on DF. I personally have been happy with inching mine up into the mid one twenties for everything but soft recovery. Of course you didn't ask for my speculation!

[Edward4492]

Actually Glen that was EXACTLY what I was thinking. And I'm not really that far off of my best times. I had one stretch in August/ September of 2014 that culminated in my lifetime PR of 6:59, but reading back through my training log I was doing a lot of 20r work including one brutal 15k at just under an hour (1:59.5). I never got with-in five seconds of that time again. My average competition 2k over (11) events the last two seasons is 7:09. My 500m last month, was 1:34.0, lifetime best 1:33.4.

So I've slipped a little......but not much. I do wonder if I've gotten weaker as I've lowered the drag. I thought all of the OTW stuff would have made me stronger, but I don't think I was working hard enough. Regardless, I'm going to stay with the 20r/ 200w work outs and see where it takes me.

Thanks for your comment, I value your opinion. I think you vocalized my thoughts. I just don't know if it makes sense.

[Cyclist2]

As you stated, the amount of work done is independent of DF. Comparing DF to bicycle gearing, if I'm going up some hill in a real low gear (low DF) I'm spinning faster and each stroke is easier. In a higher gear (high DF) the strokes feel harder. Still get to the top of the hill either way! However, if I'm in too low of a gear, I can't apply as much power because my legs are moving too fast and even though I still get to the top, I've wasted a lot of energy just moving the legs around real fast without being able to put good power into each stroke. Feels uncomfortable.

Maybe at the lower DF, it's like that - a lot of motion, but not really efficient. I also would suggest raising DF a little to get a smoother, slower motion to improve your efficiency, without making it so heavy it feels like you're doing deadlifts.

[Edward4492]

Thanks for the analogy cyclist2, but it would seem that the fixed rate (20r) breaks the comparison. Lower gearing on the bike results in higher rpm. As another side note I tend to carry the same 10w/s. As recently as last week I was doing 250m intervals at 369w and 39r, 9.46 w/s. In September I did 500m@1;34.0, 421W and a 45r, right at 9.35 w/s, not too much of a fall off.

On a bike if you're doing 90 rpm at 20mph, the wattage would be all over the map depending on tail wind, head wind, up or down hill.If you were to pedal at a fixed rpm and a fixed wattage, then speed would vary. If you have a tail wind and maintain 90 rpm and try and hold 300w you would be flying and would have to shift to a higher gear to keep up. Hit a hill and you need to downshift, the speed drops way off. I spent a fair amount of time on TT bikes with power meters,the analogy breaks down a bit. It may be more like a TT'er who likes to roll a big gear at 60 rpm and 300w vs. a spinner who generates 300w at 90 rpm.

What makes the erg interesting is that the rate, the wattage, and speed can all be fixed but the damper can alter the "feel".

Thanks for weighing in.

[aussieluke]

I know this one has been beaten to death. But a recent work out got me to thinking. Doing (for example) 5000m @ 20r/ 200w at a 93drag compared to a 100 drag. Is there any advantage to rowing (from a training or strength building stand point) at the heavier drag? I know these are very low drags by most standards. And I have to go with heavier drags for the short stuff, under 500m, as there seems to be a limit as to how hard I can pull on the low drag (around 1:30 for a few strokes).

By any definition the amount of work done is identical (200w 20r; I would assume length per stroke). But the higher drag feels extremely heavy to me. I'm just wondering if there's any value to staying with the higher drag for the 20r sessions. Will it make me stronger?

If you did these exact same workouts at the different drag factors, and maybe more extreme variations , using ErgData, then I imagine the main difference would be the drive time per stroke. At higher drag the stroke would take longer. The wheel would accelerate more slowly, but to a higher top speed, but then slow down faster too.

I wonder if it is better to think of drag as the 'viscosity' of the virtual water, than as gearing on a bike...?

At low drag you'd have to push fast to catch the water, but you would also glide a bit further. If you were rowing through treacle, then you would have more to push against and be able to put more power through the oars, but you would also slow down quicker. I dunno, make sense to me. If you adjusted df until the 'water' feels right then you would be fastest overall.

[Bob S.]

I wonder if it is better to think of drag as the 'viscosity' of the virtual water, than as gearing on a bike...?

Definitely! Even same term is used. Drag, as used for the erg, was probably based on the equivalent used for the effect of water slowing the boat. Increasing the damper setting on the erg is very much like tying a bungee around the hull of a shell. That's a far more descriptive analogy than comparing it to changing the gears on a bicycle.

Bob S.

[hjs]

I know this one has been beaten to death. But a recent work out got me to thinking. Doing (for example) 5000m @ 20r/ 200w at a 93drag compared to a 100 drag. Is there any advantage to rowing (from a training or strength building stand point) at the heavier drag? I know these are very low drags by most standards. And I have to go with heavier drags for the short stuff, under 500m, as there seems to be a limit as to how hard I can pull on the low drag (around 1:30 for a few strokes).

By any definition the amount of work done is identical (200w 20r; I would assume length per stroke). But the higher drag feels extremely heavy to me. I'm just wondering if there's any value to staying with the higher drag for the 20r sessions. Will it make me stronger?

Drag mosty alters the drivetime, I myself am relative a low drag man. 2k 125, I used to use much lower. Have raced a while 103.
I think you biggest problem is being used to your current drag.

Low rate work is maybe not the best way to rate up. Do this on more rate.

[G-dub]

But I think at 93 you blow out the stroke really fast - at least it feels that way. Like there is nothing for the body and arms to pull. Wouldn't a longer space under the force curve, assuming you also get power, be beneficial over a really short sharper peak one? I recall the video that the founder of C2 doing with the DF way down as a way to show leg drive - meaning the very low DF allowed him to almost isolate the leg drive. But if it was advantageous to do it all the time, why did he not keep it way down there?

[hjs]

But I think at 93 you blow out the stroke really fast - at least it feels that way. Like there is nothing for the body and arms to pull. Wouldn't a longer space under the force curve, assuming you also get power, be beneficial over a really short sharper peak one? I recall the video that the founder of C2 doing with the DF way down as a way to show leg drive - meaning the very low DF allowed him to almost isolate the leg drive. But if it was advantageous to do it all the time, why did he not keep it way down there?

Its dubble, low drag also keeps the fan spinning, for longer work not superfast, low drag can be very comfortable, beyond a certain point, certainly at higher spm, the spins so fast that drive time becomes very short.

But if you are used to lower drag, it takes some time to change the stroke. The whole dynamic of the stroke changes.

[G-dub]

It also seems like when it is way low that it takes a ton of leg energy to hold pace. Like you really have to smash the leg drive, which can get tiring which causes one to not be able to hang onto it.

[hjs]

It also seems like when it is way low that it takes a ton of leg energy to hold pace. Like you really have to smash the leg drive, which can get tiring which causes one to not be able to hang onto it.

Think thats personal, I find higher drag much more uncomfortable.

[G-dub]

That too! I'm feeling fine at 120, but that is what feels right to me based on my timing at the moment.

[crazyrower]

i recenlty did a marathon (42K) using dragfactor of 181.

for me how higher the dragfactor how more i train my arm and legs muscles and shoulders.

but i always like the heavier resistance. with cycling i always set it on the highest level. if using a crosstrainier i also add it to the maximum level.

but i always do this. when i try a new machine out in the gym. i always set it at the highest level. try it for a minute. feel the burn. that way i know okey this is the hardest this will get. my body addapts to that pain. then i start training. first a minute on medium level. then 1 minute on highest level. then 1 minute on medium level. then on highest level. ( interval ) moment its get easy. i change it to 2 minutes etc.

athe moment i feel comfortable doing something then why train at all? its the training to overcome the level of comfortable that will make your mind and body stronger.

but this is my philosophy.

[Anth_F]

it's not really good practice jumping on stuff and just setting everything to the highest level. Good way to get injured tho!!

Resistance on the erg does not come from setting the damper on max anyway. I'm sure we have covered this before in one of your other posts/threads.