Pacing intervals?

[expat-rower]

I'm looking for some advice on pacing interval sessions. I'm really new to erging (~100k meters total), but I'm coming from a strong cycling and running background. So, as I start to look at training plans, I'm surprised that so few of them have prescribed pacing for interval sessions. I've checked out the Pete Plan and even that plan shies away from offering pacing. He does eventually mention something like 2k-3 or 5k+1, which I fully understand but I want more of that. I'd love to look at a training plan that is based on pretty set pacing. I'm just really used to basing workouts off of objective measures (cycling = power or heart rate, running = 5k pace + 30 secs) and would love to find more of that for rowing. I'd prefer to set it off of pace rather than HR. However, I'd look into HR if anyone has some good recommendations.

I'd love some advice.

For the record, my PB for 2k is 6:48 (planned effort) and 5k at 18:36 (first 500 at 2:06 as I messed around with straps and then got into it). I think with some training and technique work (my technique is sad) i'll be able to hit 6:40 for 2k and 18:20 for 5k within a month. I'd love to break 6:30 and 18:10 soon after.

[G-dub]

Great times so far! You will do well.

To me the Pete Plan offers the best pacing advice and a few stock workouts that are communicable to everyone since many do them. And pacing interval workouts is relative to, given that each person has their own strengths. Power people do better on the shorter intervals and aerobic people do better on the longer ones, etc. in the end you are the best judge. But 8x500 3:30R is usually 2-3 seconds below current 2K, 8 x 500 1'R is 2K, 4 X 1K on 5'R is 2K + 1, etc etc. Here is a link to a sheet that an old poster put together that may be helpful:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=70039

[expat-rower]

Thanks G-dub.

That topic you provided had some great info in it. The link was dead but I managed to find the calculator that was mentioned. That is all really helpful.

I know over time I'll figure out what kind of erger I am, but for now it will be helpful to have some of these numbers to shoot for. I remember it took me years to figure out what kind of cyclist I was and what kind of efforts I was good at. I want to make sure if I'm gonna get into this whole erging thing that I'm working smart and not just hard. I've always struggled with being smart about my training.

[lindsayh]

I'm surprised that so few of them have prescribed pacing for interval sessions. I've checked out the Pete Plan and even that plan shies away from offering pacing. He does eventually mention something like 2k-3 or 5k+1, which I fully understand but I want more of that. I'd love to look at a training plan that is based on pretty set pacing. I'm just really used to basing workouts off of objective measures (cycling = power or heart rate, running = 5k pace + 30 secs) and would love to find more of that for rowing. I'd prefer to set it off of pace rather than HR. However, I'd look into HR if anyone has some good recommendations. I think with some training and technique work (my technique is sad) i'll be able to hit 6:40 for 2k and 18:20 for 5k within a month. I'd love to break 6:30 and 18:10 soon after.

Good goals and seem realistic.
The main reasons that most plans don't have very specific prescriptive times for the interval sessions is as Glenn said related to the very significant difference between sprinters and aerobic types coupled with very significant differences in the interval type - 500m on 1'R will be a very different exercise to 3:30'R and there are a vast range of interval and rest combinations. The goals will also change as you get better at it. As a starter the steady meters that underpin all the plans are I reckon more important than the precise rates on intervals. What the PP does for example is to use your own paces to set goals as each cycle - you use the average from the last time as the starting pace for the next lot - I suspect this is a better measure than a generalised "rule" that tries to cover people of all skill and fitness levels.
Definitely get technique help here or elsewhere before you get into bad habits and risk injury.

[jamesg]

I'm surprised that so few of them have prescribed pacing for interval sessions.

Short intervals come at the end of training plans, when what we need is rest and experience at high speed. Plans like the Interactive suggest a variety of pieces, to keep us guessing. When on the blocks, we need to know what to do next, and this can only be based on experience.

During endurance work, on the erg, which measures power, we use Watt bands linked to our last 2k test, as in the InterActive schedules. This is a double effect plan, with both power and HR bands. Using Watts, UT1 is 60-70% of test power, UT2 slower (50-60), AT faster (70-80), TR and AN faster still, going over 2k Power.

See also Wolverine L4 schedules. A typical L4 10 minute piece might be 2 minutes each at 18 20 22 20 18; repeat ad nauseam. In this idea, each stroke is close to the stroke we used in the 2k, which is how crews train.

[expat-rower]

Lindsay:
Thanks so much for your response. I'll look further into the PP and how it uses previous efforts to set pacing. I didn't see much about that, but I'll look for it.

James:
Thanks. I was wondering a bit about using watts, but haven't seen much about using them for erging. It seems like 500m pace is far more common. I'll look into some power based plans and see what I can find.

I think I'm gonna turn my focus back to longer pieces to build up some endurance and improve technique. I got a bit excited and started hitting harder shorter efforts.

Love this forum. It's the most supportive sport-related forum I've ever come across. Running and cycling forums are usually far less friendly and helpful.

Thanks for helping a newbie.

[lindsayh]

Lindsay: Thanks so much for your response. I'll look further into the PP and how it uses previous efforts to set pacing. I didn't see much about that, but I'll look for it.
James: Thanks. I was wondering a bit about using watts, but haven't seen much about using them for erging. It seems like 500m pace is far more common. I'll look into some power based plans and see what I can find.

No problems - there is a very helpful culture here - it is an interesting phenomenon maybe related to the shared pain we all inflict on ourselves like some secret society!

This is what Pete writes:

Pacing the sessions:
If you read other sources of information about the Pete Plan, ignore any reference to how to pace the sessions. It is possible to give a rough guide of how the pace of a session might fit in compared to your best 2k or 5k pace, but everyone is different, everyone has different strengths, and not one number for this will fit everyone. So simply follow the pacing guidance I’ll give you here, and you should never fail to finish a session while following the Pete Plan.
For all the interval sessions, both speed intervals and endurance intervals, the key thing is doing your first attempt at a new session at a pace you know you can achieve. It doesn’t matter if that makes the first cycle of the plan very easy; it is for the best in the long run. For a first attempt at each session simply look at a total distance of the session as a whole, and estimate how fast you could row that as a single piece, from the nearest distance you have done. For example, for the speed interval sessions where the total distance is 4k, look at the pace of your best recent 5k perhaps. Then for your first attempt at any of those sessions, simply do all but the last rep of the session at that pace. When it comes to the final rep, go as fast as you can. Then at the end of the session look at the average pace on the monitor from the session, and write it down – this will be your target the next time you attempt that session. On your next attempt you will do all but the last rep at that average pace, and again go as fast as you can on the final rep. This is how you will continue on all the time you follow the plan.
The only guideline for pacing the steady distance sessions is that they should be within the bounds of 22 to 25spm, and at such a pace as you recover sufficiently for the hard session the following day. If in doubt, go slower! These sessions should be at least 10seconds slower pace than your endurance interval sessions.
Always take a complete rest day every week – it is as important as any of the sessions you do!

I know everyone is different, but I still want to know what are good times for each of the interval sessions!
Ok, but these are neither targets for the first time you try a session, or even for the longer term.
8 x 500m = 3seconds faster than 2k pb pace (2k – 3)
Speed pyramid = 2k pb pace (2k)
4 x 1000m = 1second slower than 2k pb pace (2k + 1)
5 x 1500m = 5k pb pace (5k)
4 x 2000m = Half a second slower than 5k pb pace (5k + 0.5)
3k, 2.5k, 2k = 1second slower than 5k pb pace (5k + 1)

The experience in the 2016 PP thread here was pretty close to these guides bearing in mind the huge difference in experience and fitness levels.

Quite a bit of watt based stuff too around here and especially for those with OTW background
The ISS training guide has quite a bit based on it and some use watts%% for most of their training
https://indoorsportservices.co.uk/training/guide