Handle Down or ...

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
DavidA
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Re: Handle Down or ...

Post by DavidA » December 5th, 2016, 5:05 pm

Cyclingman1 wrote:That's an easy one for me. Let's say one is trying for a 6K PB and at 3K, one knows it cannot happen. I say keep up the intensity as well as possible and do a good 4K and wait for a better day. Slogging along is misery, is miserable.

This does point to the unpredictability of endurance sports. I'm sure plenty of people get to an erg venue well rested for 2K and then lay an egg. That's why setting a WR in training in Jan does not predict setting a WR in Feb at Crash-B.
I agree. That is also what I would try to do.

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jamesg
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Re: Handle Down or ...

Post by jamesg » December 6th, 2016, 2:58 am

You start off, things are going well, then that feeling of the numbers you're hoping for are sliding
Just start slow and you'll never get into that situation; we can always speed up in the last 500 (or 2k as to length).

Indeed if at 500 in you start to think "things are going well" then they're not, so slow down anyway. Going fast is very expensive, thanks to the cube law.

The more analytical alternatives require lots of testing over all distances from 500 to 10k so that a race pace can be identified. Even then, a race plan is still needed. There is, for 2k, the French protocol, but this takes a large amount of LSS to get the necessary endurance. Roughly, it says race at 70% of your 500 Wattage. We can also straddle the target by doing fast cruises to both 500 and 8000 m and split the difference for a 2k, with the last 500 all out if needed to win. A lot of races can be won by just cruising and watching the others blow up.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg.
2024: stroke 5.5W-min@20-21. ½k 190W, 1k 145W, 2k 120W. Using Wods 4-5days/week

sander
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Re: Handle Down or ...

Post by sander » December 6th, 2016, 5:13 am

ArmandoChavezUNC wrote:As a coach, there is nothing worse one of my rowers can do than quit during a workout or test. If I can't trust you to finish a piece on land, how can I trust you to finish a piece on the water?

As a team-rower, there is nothing worse than seeing one of my teammates quit during a workout or test. If I can't trust you to finish a piece on land, how can I trust you to finish a piece on the water?

As an individual-rower, there is nothing worse than quitting during a workout or a test. How can I trust myself to be mentally strong enough on water if I can't finish a piece on land?

Rowing is as much about your physical fitness as much as it is about your mental fortitude. There is no mentally weaker thing you can do than quit during a test or workout, especially if it's a test that you have been preparing for over a long period of time. It's just as important to finish a piece that isn't going your way and says as much about you as an athlete as finishing a piece where you're going to PR. If you aren't mentally strong enough on land, you won't be mentally strong on the water and will break easily.
I subscribe to all that, but with two remarks.

1. Mental skills are something that the athlete can learn, and actually learning from a HD experience is a good way. It is not that some people "are mentally strong" and some "just aren't". As a coach, you should _trust_ that you can teach your athletes to become mentally strong.

2. Actually sitting in that crew boat, it is easier to go deep than on the erg, especially when the team is a positive and trusting one. One of the reasons I love racing the double or bigger boats, is that i know I push myself harder in those boats than in the single. Most people are wired like that.
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ArmandoChavezUNC
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Re: Handle Down or ...

Post by ArmandoChavezUNC » December 6th, 2016, 10:10 am

Absolutely agree with your #2 - other than my 2k test at Crash-B's last year, I don't think I've ever pushed myself as hard on the erg as I did on the water racing with my college teammates. Like you said though, that trust has to be built otherwise it doesn't really work as well.

#1 - I agree to the extent that mental strength is definitely something that can be worked on and improved, but I disagree in that I don't think DNFing a test is the place to learn and I think it hurts the team as a whole more than it can potentially help the individual athlete who quit.
PBs: 2k 6:09.0 (2020), 6k 19:38.9 (2020), 10k 33:55.5 (2019), 60' 17,014m (2018), HM 1:13:27.5 (2019)

Old PBs: LP 1:09.9 (~2010), 100m 16.1 (~2010), 500m 1:26.7 (~2010), 1k 3:07.0 (~2010)

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bisqeet
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Re: Handle Down or ...

Post by bisqeet » December 6th, 2016, 11:05 am

ig at home on my erg, then who cares.
sure its my own pride, but I know its time to rethink, refuel, and retry.

not so easy in a quad half way thru a 14k row. have to fight thru it - try and recover when you can, fight through it...
when the rowing gets tough...the tough get rowing...
Dean
2020 Season: 196cm / 96kg : M51
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maestroak
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Re: Handle Down or ...

Post by maestroak » December 11th, 2016, 11:24 am

I only HD'd once that I can remember and only missed targets a handful of times. The former was due to intense cramps. I view my rows as being in the boat, it's easier for me on the mental aspect. Jim asks, where is the rule you finish the row. My answer is, it's in my rulebook. One of the only rules. I need it so I don't start doing mental gymnastics every time the sledding gets tough and weighing whether I should HD or not. My rules make it very important to choose targets carefully. I also don't set out to do PBs, but I may set out for a near PB and then if I'm feeling good can PB. If I am not feeling good I push through to hit my target. If I choose unwisely I suffer but still make my target. Works for me. To each his own.

-Steve
44yo, 5'10", 180 lb.

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MarkEg
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Re: Handle Down or ...

Post by MarkEg » December 11th, 2016, 12:53 pm

Have handled down twice ever --in the same day while 2K testing. (I PB'd in the third because I knew I'd hate myself)
500m -- 1.30
2k-- 6:51.0
5K-- 18-56
6K--22.32
30min-- 7848
10K-- 38-54
HM - 1 hr 28


Started Rowing seriously, December 2015
46 years old
5 ft 10 ins
185 Lbs
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aussieluke
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Re: Handle Down or ...

Post by aussieluke » December 12th, 2016, 11:25 am

When I HDd with 350 to go in a 2k attempt, it meant I knew exactly what my limit was, and how to push as hard as possible next time without bonking. Next time I nailed it and knew I couldn't have possibly gone any harder.
Male, 35, 5'10", 78kg
Started rowing Feb 2016
500m 1:33.2
2000m 6:57.4
5000m 18:47.6

Cyclingman1
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Re: Handle Down or ...

Post by Cyclingman1 » December 12th, 2016, 11:35 am

Except for a multi-person boat situation, handle down seems to be basically a personal decision. Some here obviously feel that HD undermines their entire training program with the possibility of future repercussions. Others chalk up HD to a bad day with having nothing to do with future efforts. I doubt seriously if either camp can convince the other. I tend to agree with the idea that those who push themselves the hardest have a greater risk of HD. The risk/reward tradeoff just does not pan out at times.

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