Rowing SPM - Cardio Vs. Power

[jelatterell]

I am about 45 days into owning my Concept2 Model D PM5, and I am learning as I go here. With virtually no experience rowing before, I bought this for my cardio equipment in a home gym I am slowly building (much cheaper than a quality treadmill, and less maintenance issues). The idea being this would cover cardio during the winter vs running outside. Most days I combine this with freeweights after rowing up to 4km-5km.

I am constantly working on my technique as I log more time on the rower. I have been questioning my normal SPM for a couple of weeks now. It sounds like a typical range is 21-30 for most people, with people recommending all the way down to 18 spm. I have also read 30-36 spm for competing. From what I understand a lower spm will help you develop more power with each stroke, leading to more efficiency, and with this base established you can begin to increase your pace.

If I am looking for cardio on the rower, am I wrong to row at a higher spm? My typical pace is 30-32 spm with 1:50-1:55/500m, and after doing that for a few weeks I have found it difficult to row at a slower pace without fully concentrating on the timer. I'm not opposed to forcing myself to slow down, but I just want to know if I am wrong to do it if my purpose is aerobic exercise.

Thanks to all. I'm just trying to learn more about the new equipment in my basement, looking for some help! Hopefully I am not duplicating topics, but I did not find anything speaking to my question here.

[Masterninja]

I was and still am in a similar boat. When I first started rowing a few months back, solely for cardio purposes, it felt incredibly awkward to row at a rate of 18-20. I even went so far as to go back to reread some of the advice that i saw here to make sure I hadn't read it incorrectly cause I didn't see how anyone could row that slow lol!

I can tell you the lower rate has been incredibly beneficial for me in many regards. First off my power was not really lacking, and like a lot of people with a lifting background I could hold it together long enough to row a decent 500 off the bat. The longer pieces, however, were and still are difficult for me. I think the biggest factor in a lower rate for me has been taking the time really dissect the recovery portion of my stroke as well as learning to relax so that I can generate more power consistently on the longer pieces and maintain good form in a relaxed state.

I was very anti steady state when I got here. But the results don't lie. Just focusing on some longer slower pieces shaved almost 30 seconds off my 2k in a month and 3 seconds off my 500. Bare in mind those are beginner gains and will soon subside but I'll take whatever I can get!

I also tend to feel less beat up at the lower rate and am constantly energized after my sessions instead of being worn down.

[lindsayh]

I bought this for my cardio equipment in a home gym I am slowly building (much cheaper than a quality treadmill, and less maintenance issues). The idea being this would cover cardio during the winter vs running outside. Most days I combine this with freeweights after rowing up to 4km-5km.
From what I understand a lower spm will help you develop more power with each stroke, leading to more efficiency, and with this base established you can begin to increase your pace.
If I am looking for cardio on the rower, am I wrong to row at a higher spm? My typical pace is 30-32 spm with 1:50-1:55/500m, and after doing that for a few weeks I have found it difficult to row at a slower pace without fully concentrating on the timer. I'm not opposed to forcing myself to slow down, but I just want to know if I am wrong to do it if my purpose is aerobic exercise.

If you are primarily interested in cardio fitness and aerobic training then you will certainly have to slow down both in stroke rate and pace/500m I suspect.
(there is actually a lot of discussion about this on some of the "newbie" and training zones threads).
I suspect that 1:50 pace/30+sr is going to get you way over cardio HR goal and therefore won't train you aerobically unless you are very fit indeed. You will also have to extend the piece beyond 4/5k and look at probably 30 minutes at least to get the most benefit. A fast rate will also mean you are training a weak stroke.
The goal for cardio fitness is say 30/40 minutes 2-4 times a week with your HR in the 70-80% of MHR - there is a lot here about training zones and you need to spend a lot of time in UT1 and UT2. MHR actually means % of heart reserve rather than the raw maximum.
First find a real or close to maximum heart rate after extreme exercise (no formulae will work) and your slowest resting rate say just before getting of bed.
Then HRR = MHR-RHR (eg mhr180, rhr60 so HRR = 120) then take % of that (so 80% = 96) and add back rhr so 80% = 156.
Then you find a pace/500 that you can hold for 30 minutes without your heart rate exceeding that cap. it will probably be much slower that 1:50 but don't panic - it works. A good stroke rate for these steady pieces depends a little on physical things but 22-25 is a good goal. A slower rate will improve each stroke and help with technique. A 30+ stroke rate is useful when racing or doing a sprint time trial but not when doing steady cardio pieces.

(BTW this is immediately below us on the training thread and illustrates what is being discussed - you are probably training in AT or above right now)
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=151427

[aussieluke]

Long , low rate steady state training definitely works.

It will be so different from what you have been doing, I would suggest a couple of things to simplify and work your way into it:

- Pick a suitable time rather than a distance. Something like 30 minutes, 40 minutes or even plan to do two 20 minute pieces with a short break to stretch and drink water and reset yourself.

- Pick a low rate range or just a cap, either 18-22 or just cap it at 22

- Pick an arbitrary pace to try and stick close to. With the difference in effort to your current training I'd suggest maybe 2:15 pace as a rough guide. Will stop you from going too hard or not using enough power in your stroke.

Try some workouts within those parameters at see how it feels and adjust from there.

Thing to remember with low rate training is it the recovery that is slower, not the drive. Drive hard and long with good technique and not leaning back too far, then recover slowly and smoothly.

[jamesg]

My typical pace is 30-32 spm with 1:50-1:55/500m. I want to know if I am wrong to do it if my purpose is aerobic exercise.

You're working at well over 200W. This is more than enough for aerobic exercise for most people, but needs to be related to your height and age.

As a very rough guide you could consider 2 W/kg as enough for aerobic, but under HR control (70% HRR) so that you can go the distance. Aerobic work is for endurance; and endurance is the ability to get rid of waste products and so avoid their build-up. This is a growth function, so takes time in both years and hours aboard.

Your stroke work (which is net stroke length x average handle force) is about 8 Watt-minutes (pace 1:55 at 30). This too needs to be related to height and age.

[bisqeet]

sort of depends on your current fitness level.
cardio work is usually long and steady. in excess of 40 minutes or so.

there are two methods of gauging the effort; Heart rate or by work (watts).

watts is probably better for longer rows as the Hr variation (dehydration) does vary over longer rows.

although the watt/stroke of your effort (230-260watts / 30-32 SPM) is relatively low (7-8,5 W SPI), the rate is quite fast.
- i'm guessing you are maybe slightly vertical challenged - big guys don'T usually rate that high, or like to conserve energy by rating lower and pulling higher watts (i.e. same pace, but at R24)

Is your heart rate still in UT2/UT3/UT1 range or that the watts pulled at about 60% of maximum (ideal bands for optimal cardio work)?
are you able to converse at that level?

compared to my training, which I think of as nearly pure aerobic work:
100k+/week of which 80-90% is rate 18, pace 2:05-2:08, HeartRate sub 130.

- yours is very fast. How long are your training units?

that said, Eric Murrays recovery rows are usually at 1hr @ 1:45 pace....
so maybe you are just super fit and i'm really envious of your performance

if anyone is quicker they can link you to the freespirit HR band calculator or add more information about UT2 rows; how and why
- i need to pop off

[hjs]

Rowing like you do now is a bit like cycling, in itself nothing wrong with, if you want to make more meters, a slower pace is needed, but you want your stroke to stay strong, thats why you need a lower spm.
Try rowing strapless, the most easy way to learn to keep your stroke calm.

Races or time trials are free rate.

[lwtguy]

It is a common misconception for people new to rowing to confuse stroke rate with speed. While in sports like cycling, RPM=Speed (for the most part), in rowing stroke rate is just a factor in speed. I had a coach once (A mad scientist that consistently coached boats to Henley) that explained it like this: Speed=Power + Rate + Length. Power and Length are the two most important pieces of that equation as they are the two that take the longest to develop.

Rate is something that most rowers will forgo until it is needed (typically in a racing season). Power and length can takes months or years to develop, while rating will take just a matter of weeks.

[jelatterell]

Thank you, everyone. It's good to be able to get different opinions!

I'm 28, male, 6' and about 195lbs (88kgs). Something I am noticing through the comments is a need for longer sessions. I think this would force me into a lower spm, because I would not be able to sustain the higher spm or the 1:50-1:55 rate longer than 20-30 minutes.

I have always been a person to do shorter sessions (30 mins or less), because I could never stand to do longer sessions. When I was younger I could play on basketball court for hours, but if you asked me to run for 10 minutes it was the worst thing ever. I've learned to like it more over time, but I still settle for shorter sessions with higher intensity (running sub 20min 5ks for example). I lift weights after rowing 3-4 days a week too, which is part of the reason I go for shorter sessions.

I have been trying to decrease my rate after getting on these boards for a week or two. Last night I did a 5k, and I forced myself to do four 3 minute stretches where I was 22-24. Inbetween when I was not focusing on going at that rate I saw my rate was down from 30-32 to 27-29...it's a start!

[lwtguy]

Try this one out: 3x15' with 3' rest

Break it down like this: 5' at 18spm, 5' at 20spm, 5' at 22spm. Repeat for all 3 pieces.

This is a good progression because it forces you to stay lower, but also lets you gradually speed up over the course of the piece.

[Anth_F]

Most stuffs been covered!! But just wanted to chime in saying i can relate to not being one for doing "long sessions"

Nearly all of my cardio erg work will not exceed 35 mins. Lots of 20-30 min ones, all low rate stuff 21-24 and it's done me lots of good & great workouts.

It's very important to also focus mostly on developing good technique in these early phases. Have fun experimenting and just enjoy it

[jamesg]

Something I am noticing through the comments is a need for longer sessions

Given your age and size, a stroke worth 8 Watt-minutes can be improved and you can probably train at 20-24 and 250 - 300W, with the necessary technique. This is mostly sequences and posture that make the legs do their bit.

Low drag and low feet, as in a boat, will help you too, whereas high drag and high feet will not.

This is an Olympic sculler in training. Note his posture and sequences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4

This long sequenced style at low rating lets us use plenty of strength with no risk (an outing might be a thousand strokes or more), but without overloading the CV system, so is very effective for endurance work.

[bisqeet]

Something I am noticing through the comments is a need for longer sessions

Given your age and size, a stroke worth 8 Watt-minutes can be improved and you can probably train at 20-24 and 250 - 300W, with the necessary technique. This is mostly sequences and posture that make the legs do their bit.

Low drag and low feet, as in a boat, will help you too, whereas high drag and high feet will not.

This is an Olympic sculler in training. Note his posture and sequences.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4

This long sequenced style at low rating lets us use plenty of strength with no risk (an outing might be a thousand strokes or more), but without overloading the CV system, so is very effective for endurance work.

very nice link, james.
shows that the drive is very quick/powerful - no difference between the drive phase of a sprint and that of a UT2 row. only difference is the slow recovery phase to keep in optimal CV.

sorry if i upset those, but I doubt 20mins or 30 minutes cardio is doing any/much effect whatsoever - longer is better here.
Opinions differ, but longer is definetly better 40min minimum...

[MarkEg]

compared to my training, which I think of as nearly pure aerobic work:
100k+/week of which 80-90% is rate 18, pace 2:05-2:08, HeartRate sub 130.

Is that really what your week consists of, Dean? On that basis my aerobic work is way too fast

[lindsayh]

Is that really what your week consists of, Dean? On that basis my aerobic work is way too fast

I agree with Dean - my understanding is 30/40mins and many have aerobic that is too fast.