Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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hjs
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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by hjs » November 22nd, 2016, 4:21 am

G-dub wrote:If my experience with misinterpreting Jack tells me anything, he is saying to NOT stop and to dig in and keep going all the way through to the races. I personally think this notion of "plateau" is a little tricky to apply here with us weekend warriors. All of us continue to make gains when we let our minds lets us. Yes, some have been sick, some needed a mental break, some had life interruptions etc, but all of us made progress when we were stuck into it and all of us continue to make progress even now. Let's keep going!

And no one person pulls the plug on the thread. It ends when everyone is through.
The world plateau ?? Once you get pretty fit, every second becomes hard work. If an experienced rower improves 1 second per av on a 2k in one season he has done great. In PP words thats 12 months plateau ing.
The big problem is, pete planners are almost always inexperienced ergers, relative not fit, not well trained, with not much experience is pacing and stuff. Like most beginners they start out very enthusiastic, improve rapidly, but are digging deep in their reserves. The group pressure makes it worse. Once people start Hd sessions, they are at the point of overreaching and its only a matter of little time and they fall off the wagon.

A liniar program like PP is build to get to faillier. There is no endgoal, enddate. Thats a big weakness. This is by the way a weakness for most in training.

The point is, once you beyond the beginners stage, mindset should change, you have had you early fast gains. Now you should be more looking to keep you gains, and see what you need/want to do to keep on improving.
The term plateau is really wrong. Its being beyond the beginners stage.

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hjs
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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by hjs » November 22nd, 2016, 4:53 am

paul45 wrote:Yes indeed, but this is the part i don't get and correct me if i go astray or am wrong.

Pete Plan is to make improvements, and some are knocking there pan in on
the core sessions and have PB'd through there hard work, that' what it's all about,
but it really is so frustrating knowing that one man is not and fears doing
a 2k TT.

It clearly say's "give in to all temptation on doing the 1st 250m rep hard" so
why is Jack doing this :?: :?: 1:55 pace :shock: 1st 250m it should be 2:04 pace and it
should feel easy (dead easy), next rep 500m 2:04, 750m rep 2:04, 1k 2:04
then speed up an the way down 750m 2:03.5, 500m 2:03.0, all out
last 250m.

You could start at 2:02 first 250m this should feel dead easy, the session gets
harder as it goes on. You will know what i mean if you just try Jack,
im being friendly here and giving you sound advice, 9 million meters Jack,
its time you showed that 2k who is boss.

Now Jack will have the confidence to beat his 8:17.7 2k PB :wink:
True, but Paul.... You know you haven,t done ONE real 2k in your WHOLE life. :P

And no I don,t need to hear the 1000 reasons why :wink:

Would be a good idea for you guys to pick a day a just do it.

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hjs
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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by hjs » November 22nd, 2016, 6:11 am

paul45 wrote:I agree Henry, :wink:

Ive a 2k TT on saturday, so what.

Every session i do now the pace is a lot slower but im in a much better place
and that's it really.

And yes i did over think and react, i am not the same athelete as you knew me
i am in a much better place :D

That's it. No pressure whatsoever.
Was a bit kidding Paul. Its certainly not for everybody to do 2k s. Its really tough. For general health its not needed at all. You should focus on the long run, you know you weakness, at some point you tend to stop training. For you thats should be your main concern, not quitting!
Good luck with that 2

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by JohnAd » November 22nd, 2016, 8:20 am

jack, I think it was me who first interpreted you asking "Who has most weeks complete, most complete w/out vac breaks or illness?" as being a kind of end of the thread question, sorry if that wan't your intention. the other questions are indeed interesting and deserve answers. I like Lindsay's explanation of the northern hemisphere autumn cooling at and being in regular close contact with mini-disease vectors (aka kids).

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by G-dub » November 22nd, 2016, 9:04 am

I'm not sure I should venture further into this, but alas....

I think the message is that some or all of the PP folks may be reaching a point of diminishing returns a few weeks shy of race day (not that more sharpening couldn't occur) and that next go around starting the plan closer to race day is worth considering. Makes sense to me anyway.

Henry - I think we are saying the same thing. In concept I would think the word "plateau" is most appropriate for someone that is fully trained and at their full potential - like someone that does it for a living or many hours a week with great focus for a long time. I am not sure us weekend warriors ever totally get there, even though what we are doing is demanding, hurts, is super challenging and more than many couch potatoes would ever think about. Doesn't mean we don't stall out, but I bet in our case it's as much to do with the mental side as the physical. I am not even sure why I am talking about it actually, except that the phrase "plateauing within 4-6 weeks" may not apply across the board.
Last edited by G-dub on November 22nd, 2016, 9:20 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by Bloodbuzz Corio » November 22nd, 2016, 9:10 am

Glenn sensibly suggested the idea of training through my first race and trying to peak for BRIC, and given the disrupted last couple of weeks I've had not sure a taper is required or will be beneficial, but for better or worse am going to do one anyway. A few pages back Henry said he may do a 90/95% 2k a few days out (he actually suggested Wed for a Sat race) - which I liked the idea of today - a hard(ish) effort for the duration of the race (plus a bit) and a chance to practise my race plan.

Targeted a 1:48.0 pace - which would be 92% of 2k Watts aiming for 800m @ 1:49, 600m @ 1:48, 400m @ 1:47 and 200m @ 1:46. Ended up just a hair quicker than that:

Image

Pacing was close to target, only realised when I saw this chart I had thrown in a few quicker strokes in the final 200m so did end up cruising over the line back at 1:48

Image

Feel good about this - PE during the piece was okay - legs started to complain a bit but only in the last few hundred meters, and recovery good - lungs stinging a bit but otherwise feel great now.
Rohan - 46y, 178cm, ~77kg, Logbook

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by gooseflight » November 22nd, 2016, 9:32 am

G-dub wrote:I'm not sure I should venture further into this, but alas....

I think the message is that some or all of the PP folks may be reaching a point of diminishing returns a few weeks shy of race day (not that more sharpening couldn't occur) and that next go around starting the plan closer to race day is worth considering. Makes sense to me anyway.

Henry - I think we are saying the same thing. In concept I would think the word "plateau" is most appropriate for someone that is fully trained and at their full potential - like someone that does it for a living or many hours a week with great focus for a long time. I am not sure us weekend warriors ever totally get there, even though what we are doing is demanding, hurts, is super challenging and more than many couch potatoes would ever think about. Doesn't mean we don't stall out, but I bet in our case it's as much to do with the mental side as the physical.
Couple of observations. In racing terms you aren't going to gain much from your training a couple of weeks out from a race. You can cock it up, though, by doing too much and in particular the week before a race. That's when you need to manage your training, eating and sleeping.

"Plateau" is applicable. We plateau when training ceases to be progressive, regardless of where we are on the potential curve. As Henry accurately points out the Pete Plan is a linear programme. If you think about it, it's progressive in one sense only, i.e., the pace of the sessions, which should be faster from rotation to rotation but the sessions themselves don't change, i.e., they don't get longer, the intervals don't get shorter, etc.

My own experience bears this out. I followed the Pete Plan for a number of months. I reached a speed peak in July and wasn't really any faster [over 2K] four months later. As I have mentioned before, however, endurance was through the roof and I pulled off a number of notable training performances.
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PBs (2004): 6:38 (2K) | 5:22.9 (mile) | 17:39.6 (5K) | 8323 (30 mins) | 36:52 (10K) | 1:22:03 (HM '05)

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by hjs » November 22nd, 2016, 10:11 am

G-dub wrote:I'm not sure I should venture further into this, but alas....

I think the message is that some or all of the PP folks may be reaching a point of diminishing returns a few weeks shy of race day (not that more sharpening couldn't occur) and that next go around starting the plan closer to race day is worth considering. Makes sense to me anyway.

Henry - I think we are saying the same thing. In concept I would think the word "plateau" is most appropriate for someone that is fully trained and at their full potential - like someone that does it for a living or many hours a week with great focus for a long time. I am not sure us weekend warriors ever totally get there, even though what we are doing is demanding, hurts, is super challenging and more than many couch potatoes would ever think about. Doesn't mean we don't stall out, but I bet in our case it's as much to do with the mental side as the physical. I am not even sure why I am talking about it actually, except that the phrase "plateauing within 4-6 weeks" may not apply across the board.
Glenn, I think people overestimate often the efforts the real pro s put it. Don,t get me wrong they do, but they mostly have the talent. In erging term, a guy like Graham Benton pulled his first sub 6 within a year and he was smoking at that time.
Later on he got much more serious and pulled 5.42 as a lifetime best. But to get to sub 6 was not overly difficult for him.

Other example, Dutch record holder, pulled his first sub 6 as a junior, I saw that race, looked still very lumpy, far from perfect, over the years he improved and got pulling high 5.40 ies. Never really pushed.
A younger guy came on the scene, pulling fast scores. They raced, and all of a sudden the record holder could dig deeper and pulled a low 5.40. Afterwards both guys fully dead. The point, before he never took himself fully to 100%, other proberly digged deeper, but his talent was enough to let him win.

I have seen this more often, I have seen guys with such a lot of raw talent the really did not work hard for it to already reach a pretty high level.

Overal point, reaching 90% of ones potential is not overly tough to reach. Beyond that the law of diminishing returns pops up more and more. And not seldom people reach pb s, keep on training but never get there anymore. Even a freak like Usain Bolt got that.

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by hjs » November 22nd, 2016, 10:13 am

paul45 wrote:Thanks Henry, saturday's 2k TT will be my 4th 2k Test :wink: (in plan).

.
Mmm free rate? 100% effort, never saw you doing that.

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by hjs » November 22nd, 2016, 1:10 pm

There you go again. Nobody bannes you, get a grip. If where in front I would give a firm slap in the face, to let you snap out of it, really I would! You are a not a 5 year old.

You know very well you never did a full 2k after a bit training. Paddling a 2.03 after 12 months on the couch does not count.
Stay and grow up :|

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by Anth_F » November 22nd, 2016, 1:49 pm

I think it's for the best, Paul.

No offense, but you're ruining the atmosphere all of the time with your childish remarks and behavior.

You simply do not conduct yourself in a mature manner on here, most of the time.
46 yo male 5'10 88kg (Rowing since june 9th 2016) PB's 5k 19:22 30min 7518m

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hjs
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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by hjs » November 22nd, 2016, 1:53 pm

You could also say: I Disagree! Paul. Instead of all the fluff.

In the time before, with more fitness, you never did a 2k uncapped.

Your current fitness is still so poor, that does not count, you are not 80 years old, first get you slow ass in gear a bit :wink:
Atm you still paddle relative to your form a few years back. If that is still hard work, the more reason to get back on track.

You should give yourself another ban, a ban to stop training again.

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by JohnAd » November 22nd, 2016, 2:37 pm

PP 5.2.2 Skipped
PP 5.2.3 (a day early)
4X2000m 5' Rest
Previous (from cycle 3) 1:51.2
target < 1:51
01:50.8 r28 (drag was bit low so adjusted after first rep)
01:50.7 r26
01:50.6 r27
01:49.8 r27
Avg 1:50.5 r27
MHR 172
Fairly happy with that, not quite as indicated by last weeks 5x1500 but not bad considering no recovery row after the pyramid yesterday.

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by Bloodbuzz Corio » November 22nd, 2016, 3:33 pm

JohnAd wrote:PP 5.2.2 Skipped
PP 5.2.3 (a day early)
4X2000m 5' Rest
Previous (from cycle 3) 1:51.2
target < 1:51
01:50.8 r28 (drag was bit low so adjusted after first rep)
01:50.7 r26
01:50.6 r27
01:49.8 r27
Avg 1:50.5 r27
MHR 172
Fairly happy with that, not quite as indicated by last weeks 5x1500 but not bad considering no recovery row after the pyramid yesterday.
POW! John these times continue to be awesome - your ongoing improvement over such a sustained period on the PP is hugely impressive - a combination of great determination and sensible targets no doubt. Look forward to seeing you rip the chain out in a couple of weeks!
Rohan - 46y, 178cm, ~77kg, Logbook

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Re: Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

Post by G-dub » November 22nd, 2016, 4:00 pm

John is definitely cranking! Two impressive sessions.
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