Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

[DavidA]

Unfortunately a bit of a family health crisis means I have to hop back in car and drive right back to California today (another 12 hours with the dog Dave

Sorry to hear that.
I hope that everything turns out okay.

David

[Shawn Baker]

Ok, after just over 2 weeks and about 15 attempts, finally hit the target of 3:02.0 @24spm for the 1k- drag was at 199 and used the gym model E rower out here in California (sea level)- got a fairly decent cushion from a stroke rate perspective through the first 600 meters which allowed me to rate up slightly at the end and still hit 24 spm- was pleased to go well under 3:02 (3:01.4) and am glad to finally have gotten this monkey off my back- now to bump up to 26spm and look for 2:58.0 (I hope it doesn't take 15 tries as these are fairly tough, both mentally and physically)

Did a 1k cool down (also did a 1k wu prior)

Then on to some lifting

Jump squats with 185lbs x 3/5 consecutive broad jump (traveling around 40-45ft for series)- did 10 sets of these (really enjoy this, but people in gym likely think I'm a nut)

30lb med ball push press releases to about 15 ft high 10 sets of 3

30lb med ball overhead to wall slams 10x3

30lb med ball ground to air (around 20 feet high) 10x3

30lb med ball overhead to ground slams 10x3

30lb med ball chest pass to wall 10x 3

Every throw/slam is as hard as possible targeting maximal power and acceleration

Very solid workout today IMO

I have been extremely low carb over last few weeks and today was no exception- 8 raw eggs (blended with cinnamon and whey protein) for breakfast- most days it's meat and eggs- continue to feel quite good and perform arguably well

Dave, thanks- girlfriend had to fly emergently to France as her mom had a possible heart attack, but fortunately appears to be doing bettter at the moment

[hjs]

Luckily it does not sound to bad, distance is not easy.

Tough target met, next one does not sound easier . But find a way

Eating even more hardcore.........

[Shawn Baker]

First attempt at a rate 26 spm row for the 1k- eventual target is 2:58.0, but today had 3:00.0 in mind- the gym had two new model E rowers, the one I used today is not as good -already getting dirty and feels like bungy might already be a little stretched as I felt it was harder to connect with machine today. That being said this was done fasted and first thing in the morning as it was the only chance I'd have today- needless to say, it was a poor effort and my rating was a bit all over the place- need to get used to rate 26 and figure out a decent drag factor for this rate, also will hopefully use other machine next time- DF was 199 today

Henry-no more easy ones!

[Bob S.]

I am assuming that the 199df was with the damper wide open. Probably dirty, as you noted. How is the other machine?

[hjs]

Shawn never thought this way of training has easy ones.

Maybe you can per spm, bit late now, make a list per try. Gives a good overview. 24 took a lot of goes, and you never got (or wanted?) 24 all over. This 2.58 is a tough target.
I have done things like 10 x 1/1 on/off, and from 24 up the extra gains get less.

Last year a 30 x 1/1 24 at 136.x from memory. But that power is not sustainable rating up.

From now on up, its a matter of trading rate for pace. Yes more pace, but with a less strong stroke per rate.

[Shawn Baker]

Ok, switched rowers at gym to the "nicer" one- was looking at hitting 3:00 flat at 26 today (with 2:58 being eventual goal)

Not too bad- just off by a hair DF 199

Did an easy 1k wu prior and 1k cd afterwards

Took about 5 minutes then on to some deadlifting

Up to 500lbs for 5 singles (no belt, Oly shoes)- decent work -got them all and back felt decent- this is kind of the minimal acceptable level of strength i like to maintain with this

Finished with 80lb KB (biggest in gym) 1arm swings 5 sets of 20 reps -alternating arms each swing- these feel super light compared to the 176lb KB I usually use

Bob, one rower maxes out around 235, the other around 210

Henry-I agree about the drop off in efficiency but I'm not sure for me if it will be at 26, when I did my 500 work I stayed pretty efficient through up to 30 spm- think it is more of a fitness thing at this point-but time will tell (today was a positive sign I think)- also the math doesn't really work out to get the exact stroke rate for each of these- so I'm just looking at final average on monitor (but true I was at 24.4 technically)

[hjs]

Its about the big picture, a stroke here and there don,t matter. In the end only free rate matters. From 24 to 26 is 8.3% and from 131 to 129 is 7 (497/465) so indeed not much trade off yet.

[Tim K.]

Henry-I agree about the drop off in efficiency but I'm not sure for me if it will be at 26, when I did my 500 work I stayed pretty efficient through up to 30 spm

This is a concept a lot seem to have difficult grasping. Using a high drag factor when your physically able to apply a very large force is beneficial to measured performance. "Normal" people are not able to apply force that requires a high drag factor so people encourage you to reduce drag factor to get you back in their box. The increased drag factor severely caps peak wheel speed and drags wheel speed back down very quickly in between strokes, allowing you to keep maximum force on the handle. As you rate up the high drag factor maintains these peaks to a greater extent then a lower drag factor would therefore rating up has less effect on efficiency, to a point of course.

[hjs]

Henry-I agree about the drop off in efficiency but I'm not sure for me if it will be at 26, when I did my 500 work I stayed pretty efficient through up to 30 spm

This is a concept a lot seem to have difficult grasping. Using a high drag factor when your physically able to apply a very large force is beneficial to measured performance. "Normal" people are not able to apply force that requires a high drag factor so people encourage you to reduce drag factor to get you back in their box. The increased drag factor severely caps peak wheel speed and drags wheel speed back down very quickly in between strokes, allowing you to keep maximum force on the handle. As you rate up the high drag factor maintains these peaks to a greater extent then a lower drag factor would therefore rating up has less effect on efficiency, to a point of course.

Nomatter what drag, using the same stroke, and taking more strokes per time unit costs more energy, in a liniar way.
Using the same rate, a higher drag does not take more force, but less, the slower moving flywheel gives you more time.
The trouble when rating at higher speeds is the time you have to catch the flywheel, that gets less and less.

Looking at Shawns 500 and 1 min work it showed pretty well. He needed less rating, but the higher drag gave plenty enough time overall.

On longer, slower work, high drag is not needed, the fan is slow enough to have plenty of time to stroke. Strenght is seldom the limiting factor, aerobic fitness is. On shorter work raw power is the limiting factor, aerobic fitness plays much less a role.

[Tim K.]

Henry! Am I off your enemy list now? Lets try to keep this on friendly terms, ok?

1.Nomatter what drag, using the same stroke, and taking more strokes per time unit costs more energy, in a liniar way.
2.Using the same rate, a higher drag does not take more force, but less, the slower moving flywheel gives you more time.
3.The trouble when rating at higher speeds is the time you have to catch the flywheel, that gets less and less.

4.Looking at Shawns 500 and 1 min work it showed pretty well. He needed less rating, but the higher drag gave plenty enough time overall.

5.On longer, slower work, high drag is not needed, the fan is slow enough to have plenty of time to stroke. Strength is seldom the limiting factor, aerobic fitness is. On shorter work raw power is the limiting factor, aerobic fitness plays much less a role.

1. Correct. Same force, more strokes = more work. It is basically linear if you ignore accelerating your body during the stroke.
2. Correct, however from a sprinting perspective (the subject of this thread), the wrong perspective. The high drag allows a greater force to be applied for a longer period of time than would be possible with a low drag.
3. Correct again, kind of. This is one of those statements that requires a tremendous number of qualifications. It is correct in a very narrow set of circumstances. If you do a piece at 20SPM with each stroke a 100% effort, you can easily increase stroke rate to 30SPM, by doing nothing other than shortening the length of time given to the recovery, and the drive remains essentially the same (100%). With a high drag the wheel at the catch will be spinning only marginally faster than it was at 20spm due to the square relationship of velocity to work (its deceleration is very fast at high speed.). With a low drag the wheel will be dramatically higher at the catch, very seriously affecting the performance curve and efficency of the stroke. This is part of the concept I was saying many have difficulty grasping.

4. ?

5. The drag required is dependent on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to be stuffed back into the "erging is training for rowing" box then sure. The erg is just a machine. Use it as such to train in a variety of ways to prevent yourself from becoming a "one trick pony"

[hjs]

Henry! Am I off your enemy list now? Lets try to keep this on friendly terms, ok?

1.Nomatter what drag, using the same stroke, and taking more strokes per time unit costs more energy, in a liniar way.
2.Using the same rate, a higher drag does not take more force, but less, the slower moving flywheel gives you more time.
3.The trouble when rating at higher speeds is the time you have to catch the flywheel, that gets less and less.

4.Looking at Shawns 500 and 1 min work it showed pretty well. He needed less rating, but the higher drag gave plenty enough time overall.

5.On longer, slower work, high drag is not needed, the fan is slow enough to have plenty of time to stroke. Strength is seldom the limiting factor, aerobic fitness is. On shorter work raw power is the limiting factor, aerobic fitness plays much less a role.

1. Correct. Same force, more strokes = more work. It is basically linear if you ignore accelerating your body during the stroke.
2. Correct, however from a sprinting perspective (the subject of this thread), the wrong perspective. The high drag allows a greater force to be applied for a longer period of time than would be possible with a low drag.
3. Correct again, kind of. This is one of those statements that requires a tremendous number of qualifications. It is correct in a very narrow set of circumstances. If you do a piece at 20SPM with each stroke a 100% effort, you can easily increase stroke rate to 30SPM, by doing nothing other than shortening the length of time given to the recovery, and the drive remains essentially the same (100%). With a high drag the wheel at the catch will be spinning only marginally faster than it was at 20spm due to the square relationship of velocity to work (its deceleration is very fast at high speed.). With a low drag the wheel will be dramatically higher at the catch, very seriously affecting the performance curve and efficency of the stroke. This is part of the concept I was saying many have difficulty grasping.

4. ?

5. The drag required is dependent on what you are trying to accomplish. If you want to be stuffed back into the "erging is training for rowing" box then sure. The erg is just a machine. Use it as such to train in a variety of ways to prevent yourself from becoming a "one trick pony"

You know I often don,t bother to be friendly. but I general I don,t feel the need to be hostile to anyone.

3 Yes, the higher drag, given the limitations of speed we have, the more power we can deliver. But at this point, Shawn pulling around 1.30 miles away from his max. So no, its not about more power, but a bit more power overall.

4 given a fix strokelenght, and given a certain pace, the higher the drag the slower the stroke. So at certain spm, a higher drag will give a longer drivetime. Which shows on the strokeprofile. Lower drag gives a spiky profile, higher drag, a lower but wider profile. Energy is differently put in the fan.
Apart from drag, the kind of stroke we use matters, its not fixed like a bike.

5 nomatter what we use they erg for, to specialise, you have be some kind of one trick pony.
If shawn should do a full marathon it would be pretty horrible. And it seems the shorter the distance, the better he is. The 1 min and 500 went relative smooth and "easy". This 1k goes less smooth, in the end no doubt the outcome will be good, but relative to the shorter work less good. Part talent, part kind of training.

I myself see a pretty clear difference between 1k and below and 2k and above. And on the longer work the very best are all otw guys, some ergers get sub 6, but the 5.40 ish guys are rowers not ergers.
The short work the other way around, if olympic rowing was not just 2k, proberly not so.

[Shawn Baker]

So so today- back a little fatigued from deadlifts yesterday so probably limited power a bit-took 80 strokes instead of 78 from yesterday- heart rate a little lower DF essentially same at 198

Did easy 1k wu and cd

Then on to some explosive work

Jump squat triples at 185lbs/5 consecutive broad jumps (40-43 feet)--5 sets

50lb med ball push press release triples/5 consecutive broad jumps--5 sets

135lb Hang power snatches x3/5 consecutive broad jumps--5 sets

Fair amount of jumping volume (75 broad jumps)- felt nice and explosive for the most part- was still a little fatigued from the row at the beginning-so not completely ideal, but I recovered after a few sets so that I could really focus on staying explosive (the point of the workout!)

Carb intake continues to be extremely low (below 20gms per day)

Tomorrow hopefully will suck it up and dip below 3 minutes

[Tim K.]

3. The same holds regardless of who has the handle and what % of effort is being applied. It was an example and its point was to demonstrate that even though what you said was correct, to a point, there are a huge number of situations where it is not correct.

Been here done it all before. Cant be bothered with with rest. Out.

[hjs]

3. The same holds regardless of who has the handle and what % of effort is being applied. It was an example and its point was to demonstrate that even though what you said was correct, to a point, there are a huge number of situations where it is not correct.

Been here done it all before. Cant be bothered with with rest. Out.

Agree about the out, lets not clog up the thread.

About you having done it, ehh no, certainly not, you say/think stuff, which is your good right, been there there having done it etc certainly does not apply. You are a relative newbie.