Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

[Pie Man]

Thanks Glenn for the tip about DF, I will have a play with it to see what works for me.

[jackarabit]

Wapid wabbit wate? Yes, highwy overwated I bewieve! I spent a lot of time getting rid of the [powerless] bunny humping by doing restricted at <25. Is there a "natural" rhythm of large people based in their physical capacity (heart stroke volume) and autonomic response (respiration rate) Undoubtedly. But 6' 2" isn''t Paul Bunyan; is there a 6-two playmaker guard in the NBA? How about the Jawga roady, Jim Gratten, with his age group world record: 6' 3' and a notorious high rater at 2k comp.

On the flip side, the energy investment in moving body weight doesn't mean jack to the monitor.

On the third hand, men and women extending upward to six and one half feet are somehow managing to produce 32 rate OTW and practising it on the erg where energy cost of moving to the catch is higher than OTW. Rate change at continuous distance is a staple of the Concept 2 WODs. So it's not like Joe is some ponderous giant who can't be expected to vary his gait in order to catch Jack on the way down the bean stalk.

If he can leave Jack in the dust, should he take more frequent strides? Maybe not but there is the "what if" hypothetical performance yield in pace spitballed by Paul and Lindsay. Higher rates may be a better fit to 2k and shorter sprints but can be practised in a long continuous piece.

[bisqeet]

Rubbish, 5 x 1500m is 5k training right, check the spm on this 5k test 33spm

As said 26-28 is low, 24 is way to low.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpH2LraONtQ

a 1:31 split @R31 = is about 14W - same SPI as joe.

if he rated up he would be doing the same split, but its not his target.

you dont pull harder/softer - you lower/speedup the rate by altering the recovery phase. the drive always should remain constant.

no doubt his 2k max is at a different rate but the spi will remain the same. in my opinion - absolutely on the dot.

i.e. your spi remains constant (say 10 - keep it stupid simple)

so if your target pace is
2:00 - then your rate should be R20
1:45 -> R30

and so on....

- the drive is still as powerful as rating at 30 or 40 or 14. the difference is the recovery.

if 14W is his SPI (which is similar to the kiwi pair) - then his rate was spot on for that pace.

[jackarabit]

Yes, same power, but output at higher frequency equals faster pace. This damned elephant feels like it got trunks at both ends, said the men with the white canes! There is no target pace for hard distance specified by Marston, all the more reason to practise your scales and arpeggios therein.

[mdpfirrman]

Awesome stuff Joe L.! My advice would be to keep doing what you are doing! Seems to be working just fine.

Completely agree Joe. Your times speak for themselves. My PB2K last year was 27 SPM @ 7:19. I'm not as strong as you obviously, but your watts are impressive.

As far as the timed day - that's one that I would say an L4 would be fine. So would a timed 5K or 8K / 30 minute row or even what you suggested on the 8' X 4. I actually don't think people should try to PB anytime soon on the 5K unless they are really feeling it. The less experienced rowers shouldn't do more than 5K. If someone is feeling drained, they could do a 5K with a stroke rate limit (like 18 to 22) and make it a Wolverine type workout (keeping each stroke strong to make sure HR is getting up there). That's the only point of the "timed piece" day - the third hard piece of each week. It's to bring your HR up near anaerobic threshold for an extended time period - that's it. That's why I think it's the best day if someone wants to "play around" with the plan.

Personally, on my last SS of the week, I like to do power 10s in the last 20 minutes with around a 1 minute recovery row between. Now I've been doing a plan similar to the PP all year long so I don't recommend this for everyone but for me it helps with the monotony of the last SS day and it's a way to build an Ed McNeeley type of power workout into the SS day. I do this unstrapped though so I'm actually not able to pull too, too hard to work myself too hard on essentially what is a recovery day.

[G-dub]

Before this gets too out of hand, I think Joe did what I did, albeit at much more power. He figured out a page he felt doable and then marched rate to it that felt like an efficient stroke. I know that I probably would have HD'ed at the same proportion of watts to rate at r28 this go around. So you have to start somewhere. I don't think there is anything sinister going on here. Just a guy doing the session and living to fight another day.

[bisqeet]

Before this gets too out of hand, I think Joe did what I did, albeit at much more power. He figured out a page he felt doable and then marched rate to it that felt like an efficient stroke. I know that I probably would have HD'ed at the same proportion of watts to rate at r28 this go around. So you have to start somewhere. I don't think there is anything sinister going on here. Just a guy doing the session and living to fight another day.

definetly - and very well at that.
keeping that wattage up a very low 6minute 2k is on the cards.

[jackarabit]

Joe, I didn't realize that you had reached the limit of what you're capable of. The tacit premise of most sports training is that the participants will maintain their strengths while also training their, uh, deficiencies. The consensus seems to be that you are perfect and can't be improved by attempts to maintain your current power at higher rates. So be it. Don't want to mess with perfection. And I wish I had that "limitation."

[G-dub]

Now, now Jack. He probably can hold it and will hold it. Maybe he didn't think he could for 5 x 1500 though. Or maybe he did what he wanted to do. I don't think anyone is calling you out for mentioning that he practice higher rates though!? And we definitely don't need to call out John. Its only midway through week #1 after all.

[jackarabit]

When when Glenn? I had hoped I was fighting Joe's side without being inconscionably contentious. Guess not.

Joe, depends on what was meant by having trouble with high rates. If you meant that you don't like them and are sufficient to the evils of the day without, so be it.

[G-dub]

Jack, we must be slipping past each other with the written word again. Tricky stuff. I guess my fear of controversy and conflict was getting me worried that we were starting to define what was considered to be an acceptable response to a workout.There was someone else commenting on rate and I feared it was to become too big of a topic. I will quietly slip out of this discussion now. I need to get myself ready for a hard distance piece today.

[hjs]

Before this gets too out of hand, I think Joe did what I did, albeit at much more power. He figured out a page he felt doable and then marched rate to it that felt like an efficient stroke. I know that I probably would have HD'ed at the same proportion of watts to rate at r28 this go around. So you have to start somewhere. I don't think there is anything sinister going on here. Just a guy doing the session and living to fight another day.

definetly - and very well at that.
keeping that wattage up a very low 6minute 2k is on the cards.

Low raters often have big trouble rating up, or keeping the spi when rating up. A 5x1500 is roughly 5k min 1. A 2k is roughly 5k minus 6.
So 143 for the 1500s would give a 1.44 5k, and a 1.38 2k

Low 6 min needs very different numbers. Say 6,08, you should be able to pull 1.37 on the 1500 reps.

Rating up will certainly yield a better result, how much? Time will tell.

[G-dub]

From Henry "Low raters often have big trouble rating up, or keeping the spi when rating up".

I think that was what I was getting at. a full on 5K at r28 with proportional SPI is certainly beyond my aerobic capacity right now and may be forever. For the sake of argument, I did the 5 x 1500's at r24 and 1:54.8 / 232 watts or SPI of 9.7 (could have been faster, but whatever). That makes an R28 of 268.8 or a pace of 1:48.8!. I know for a fact I probably will never be able to do that! Having said that, I can hold 9.7 SPI on a 2K or pretty close to it and certainly can on the speed intervals. So it seems that rating up on the endurance intervals and hard distance piece would only bring in a weaker stroke. May bring a little bit better time, but what is wrong with practicing a stronger stroke?

[Bloodbuzz Corio]

PP Cycle 1, Week 1, Day 5 - Hard effort. 5k, 19:12.6 (1:55.2 pace) - PB by 4.1 seconds.



Didn't set out intending to PB - was aiming for 19:30, but I settled in at a 1:56 pace and felt good there pace so thought I'd just stick with that for the first couple of km and then see how I was going. Still felt great with about 2km left, so just picked the pace up slightly to achieve the PB.

Certainly not intending to go for a PB every week! But I also don't feel this was unwarranted today, and the PE was not more than I was expecting (and defo less than the other two interval sessions this week). IYI HR max was 193, with about 7 mins > 185.

[hjs]

From Henry "Low raters often have big trouble rating up, or keeping the spi when rating up".

I think that was what I was getting at. a full on 5K at r28 with proportional SPI is certainly beyond my aerobic capacity right now and may be forever. For the sake of argument, I did the 5 x 1500's at r24 and 1:54.8 / 232 watts or SPI of 9.7 (could have been faster, but whatever). That makes an R28 of 268.8 or a pace of 1:48.8!. I know for a fact I probably will never be able to do that!

I guess I can do r24 143 ish, free rate 28/30 141 ish. No way I could keep my power up per stroke.

Same for shorter work.

The big difference between good rowers and the elite guys is the ability to rate, top guys nowadays rate not seldom 36/38 dispite being tall. Not all do but 30 and lower is rare. Trading rate for pace is usefull. Looking at the technique in topraces, you see a stroke with a "soft" finish, aimed at getting a smooth direct recovery. Overly hard ending a stroke creates a backward momentum which makes the recovery slower/more difficult.

This is not ment to make you guys change things, overly talking about rate is a bit pointless. I have seen pull a guy 5.49 rate 26. Monster of a man. Wr lightweight Johanson being the other side of the spectrum, rates around 40.