Interest in a Pete Plan Thread (Earlier than Fall)?

[G-dub]

If I'm honest, it's the comradery that is the most valuable outcome - we aren't getting paid for erging - and as you say that does come from shared commitment like we experienced in the summer. This seems like a robust group and there is no doubt about the groups dedication to the sport and to good cheer. It should be a good one indeed.

[jackarabit]

G-dub says:

If I'm honest, it's the comradery that is the most valuable outcome - we aren't getting paid for erging - and as you say that does come from shared commitment like we experienced in the summer. This seems like a robust group and there is no doubt about the groups dedication to the sport and to good cheer. It should be a good one indeed.

Hear, Hear!

[jackarabit]

Mike and Dean:

Returning to the traning record spreadsheet, might be good to have Greg Smith's "self-reporting" version. I can vouch that it's a job of work for one person to lift the dailies from the thread. Access for those on the Beginner plan also? Maybe even Pete 5k if anyone is doing that? Imo, there is no reason that the general membership should have the "key" to this record. If this upcomng group has the good fortune to find a special mentor/coach, that person should also have access.

[mdpfirrman]

Mike and Dean:

Returning to the traning record spreadsheet, might be good to have Greg Smith's "self-reporting" version. I can vouch that it's a job of work for one person to lift the dailies from the thread. Access for those on the Beginner plan also? Maybe even Pete 5k if anyone is doing that? Imo, there is no reason that the general membership should have the "key" to this record. If this upcomng group has the good fortune to find a special mentor/coach, that person should also have access.

You did a nice job of mentoring me last year (along with everyone else). I was asking questions galore. And I think I made every mistake you could make, so I was a great guinea pig for the Fall group. The point is, you get more out of it when you're doing the three speed sessions a week (or whatever the beginner plan says) and by doing that, you stay with the group. If someone gets sick or goes on vacation, just join back in when better or back in town.

Perhaps I can go through the old thread this weekend and see if I can find the spreadsheet that Greg shared.

[jackarabit]

Mike, I was thinking of Greg Smith coaching summer 15. Afraid I couldn't fill those shoes in terms of knowledge, experience, commo skills and a good balance of candor and tact. Might be best to query Greg about how it works. I may still have the sprdsht and the ability to send out "invitations" to share but not certain. Maybe Dean has the chops to come thru with something similar?

[Bloodbuzz Corio]

Mike, Glenn, Jack, you've all sold me - sign me up!

I'd really like to join the group kicking off next weekend-ish, and will commit to giving it my all and sharing the good, the bad and the ugly of my efforts for the sake of comment, criticism, advice and enjoyment.

I would actually like to start on a Saturday if that's okay (so for me Sat Aug 20) - doing the sprint intervals on that day, endurance intervals on Mon, hard effort on Wed and SS Sun, Tue, Thu would suit me best. Please let me know if this would be an issue at all.

I also reckon I'll have lots more questions - so may as well start now - my SS has settled into a 19 or 20 spm recently - how strict is the 22-25spm for the SS on the PP?

Looking forward to it*!

*famous last words

[jackarabit]

You'll kill it, Rohan. As for the steady state rate question, I think Marston was mainly establishing a flexible rate ceilng on steady state in distinction to pace-focussed free rate for the hard distance and HIIT. He also avoided the low rates associated with building stroke power (30r20, hour of power, WP L4) by setting the low limit at 22spm.

[mdpfirrman]

You'll kill it, Rohan. As for the steady state rate question, I think Marston was mainly establishing a flexible rate ceilng on steady state in distinction to pace-focussed free rate for the hard distance and HIIT. He also avoided the low rates associated with building stroke power (30r20, hour of power, WP L4) by setting the low limit at 22spm.

No problem at all with that start day Rohan. Jack's right on the SS days. I think the greatest challenge (and also difference between Marston and Caviston from the Wolverine Plan) is allowing enough recovery on the SS days to keep going hard on the interval days. I've sensed (and I've been personally corrected by Caviston before) that Caviston builds endurance throughout the season gradually, peaking just before season, while Marston believes in recovery more on SS rows.

[jackarabit]

Mike is spot on about the SS not allowing sufficient recovery IF one adheres to the pace reccs from the plan. If you have a "fit and trained" 10k test, 10K PB pace + 5 to 7"" could be smack in the middle of your UT1 pace range. Then there's the bit about "not less than 10" slower than endurance interval pace." My endurance interval pace + 10" was typically better than my mid-UT1 pace or even into AT. No relief there so I took the "not less than" as permitting a lot more than, say endurance interval pace + 15" to 20". There were days when I just didn't feel like doing even 8k at high UT2 leave alone 10 to 15K! Various solutions are: 1) stretch the week to eight or nine days to have additional rest days, 2) drop one or more of the SS days, 3) do six days consecutive but the SS rows at minimum prescribed distance and one or all at a R&R pace that keeps your HR below 70%. 4) find a plan more accommodating of your level of fitness. I chose fudge #3 and never really faced up to the fact that tweaking and adjustment are necessary for those of us who have travelled a long stretch of life's highway and were never Navy Seal material to begin with.

[Bloodbuzz Corio]

3) do six days consecutive but the SS rows at minimum prescribed distance and one or all at a R&R pace that keeps your HR below 70%.

I chose fudge #3

Jack from my interpretation this isn't a fudge - but just an implementation of the PP which sensibly takes into account your fitness/capacity. A couple of quotes from the plan itself:

'On this document I have simply put the “steady distance” sessions as approximately 8 to 15k in distance. That is just a recommendation of a good distance to go for, but if you’re new to indoor rowing you might like to start out much shorter'

'Resist the temptation to row these too hard though, save that for the other three days'

'The only guideline for pacing the steady distance sessions is that they should be within the bounds of 22 to 25spm, and at such a pace as you recover sufficiently for the hard session the following day. If in doubt, go slower!'

With absolutely no maximum pace subscribed for the SS work my intention was to start in the 2:12-2:15 range (so 2k + 25-28) - with the aim being for these to be UT2 (which for me is HR of 146-153) - at this stage I don't think I need to go much faster than that at all to creep up into UT1 and was aiming to use how my HR goes at a consistent pace in the SS over the first cycle or two as one signal of either progress (going down) or overtraining (going up).

Certainly happy to take advice to the contrary at this stage if this appears to be me lowballing before we've even kicked off!

[G-dub]

Blood - you are thinking correctly in my opionion. You don't want to race the SS sessions. I would do those by feel and HR. one of the things we haven't discussed is adapting the plan to where you are in your own schedule. For instance, one might really be all about the hard sessions if angling down to a test or race. If it was mid season maybe doing it so that volume can be maintained. That is one of the challenges to me of the plan is that it tends to push us into feeling the need to race everything instead of making slower and more steady progress. It is tough to serve all the masters at once.

[jackarabit]

We're on the same page, Rohan. My endurance interval + 10" number has always been faster than my 2k + 25. Not trying to hold anyone's feet to the fire by reference to anything that Pete didn't at some point say. I was making reference above to my initial puzzlement concerning SS execution before I saw Greg Smith refer to the SS days as recovery. That really helped me get past my frustration with SS pace correlation reccs which appear side by side with the gentler, more subjective suggestions to do only what one is easily able to do. I think there's a disconnect or waffling or ambiguity in Marston's statement of his plan whch some us get past faster than others. We clearly agree that SS in the plan must be UT2 HR and pace if one wishes to meet the HIIT and the volume demands of a hybrid, everything at the same time plan.

[mdpfirrman]

I think you'll be perfect Rohan with those kind of paces. I'm guilty of getting bored on SS days and pushing the last 20 minutes or so and ending up PB 2K +15 or so. That's a temptation you have to resist. You'll do fantastic at this and monitoring it by HR is a great idea -- keeping it comfortably in your UT2 zone.

In your specific case (with your goal being sub 7 2K), you'll have to be more concerned pushing your interval paces based off of where you think you are now versus what you've actually done. I was guilty of that last year. Without a 2K personal test recently at the time, I was pushing my paces to where I thought I should be or would be, versus where I had demonstrated I was. I noticed that on your first set of 500m intervals. You were pushing pace now like you were a 7:00 flat 2K racer. I'm not saying you aren't, it's just you haven't gone sub 7 yet - I fully think 100% you will soon. Let the pace come to you so to speak, like you're talking about with the SS work. Once you have a full rotation done, you'll no longer need to base your interval paces off your 5K and 2K, you'll base it off of how well you did the last same session (using your average). Just "kick it in" the last interval if you have something left in the tank like Marston recommends.

[Bloodbuzz Corio]

Thanks Mike - great advice.

I know we can't be completely prescriptive with how these relate to the 2k and 5k times - but if the 8x500m should be roughly 2k-3 I can assure you I will not be trying to do this in 1:42 when I kick off next week!

One thing I actually did this morning was put together a list of my most recent efforts for the 5 PP interval workouts I've done (not ever done the 3/2.5/2) - which in chronology have ranged from April (1:49.5 average for 4x1k) to last week (1:43.7 average for 8x500m) - and where more recent than my last 2k and 5k PBs I will allow them guide my first run through, because they do tick the 'demonstrated' box, but then obviously that first loop will then inform the second and so on.

My worst example of getting ahead of myself was when I did the 1k in the PP speed pyramid at under 1:45 at the end of June and then had a HD in the second 750 - which I guess is the effort you're referring to in your post.

[bisqeet]

Mike, I was thinking of Greg Smith coaching summer 15. Afraid I couldn't fill those shoes in terms of knowledge, experience, commo skills and a good balance of candor and tact. Might be best to query Greg about how it works. I may still have the sprdsht and the ability to send out "invitations" to share but not certain. Maybe Dean has the chops to come thru with something similar?

yeh, i'm sure i could knock something together for the PP.
probably a google spreadsheet - invites to all attendees - fill in your own data.

I will probabyl setup a template for the eassions on fixed dates (monday start of week as per C2)