Weight Training For Endurance

[raotor]

Having read an interesting book on endurance training recently, I am now questioning my moderate weight training regime that I have been engaged in over the past few months in an attempt to add more strength to my erg work. The aforementioned book pointed out that in order to build endurance you must avoid what the author refers to as "anaerobic" lifting which focuses more on explosive power by training with relatively low reps but with heavier weights. The author states that lower weight with higher reps promotes the "aerobic" muscle fibres or "slow twitch" I think it was.

Now, I had heard of this before and had been trained many years ago for high reps, low weight regimes for rowing but I am uncertain as to where the boundary between the two types of weight training are and whether for the more typical 2000 metre or less type race distance if greater strength over endurance is the key or not. You don't see rowers built like body builders and so there is good reason why rowers train using weights the way they do. My question is how "strong" can you be before the added muscle mass built by training with heavier weights, lower reps becomes a detriment to rowing? One recent expression I heard of those with larger muscles was "All that muscle burns a lot of gas just standing still." which I took to mean that the sugar burning "anaerobic" training muscles are of little use in the greater endurance element of rowing.

I would appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on this subject as I am in the final week of a 12 week weight training plan and I am certain my performance on the erg is declining rather than improving despite having gained some muscle mass.

[aussieluke]

Look into Power to the People by Pavel, Easy Strength by Pavel and Dan John, and Dan John's 'Even Easier Strength'

All three are base on the same principal - little and often and training the 'skill' of strength.

Basic template for PTTP would be deadlift and overhead press, 2 sets of 5, 5-6 days a week.

The load is LIGHT, and the workout is so easy it is barely a workout. But you keep doing it day after day with the same weight or add a few pounds here and there.

Dan John's program is the same sort of deal but four or five lifts and sometimes varying the rep scheme but still 10 reps total per day, day after day.

So simple and easy that it can't possibly work

[hjs]

Very often strenght is not the limiting factor, endurance is. For shorter work, 1k and below raw strenght is more important, 2k and above much less so.
If you can pull 15/16 seconds below your 2k av pace you are strong enough. Most ergers can do this, improving this will not help endurance.

[raotor]

Very often strenght is not the limiting factor, endurance is. For shorter work, 1k and below raw strenght is more important, 2k and above much less so.
If you can pull 15/16 seconds below your 2k av pace you are strong enough. Most ergers can do this, improving this will not help endurance.

Yes, I can pull 15 seconds faster than my 2K avgas split but at best for 500M. So, as I suspected, endurance is the key asset here and so I am looking for some specifics on what sort of weight work I can do that would improve endurance as it does appear that my current regime is not.

Currently I am tending to do 4 sets of diminishing reps which are typically 15, 12, 10, 10 or similar depending on lift being done. The weight used is quite heavy for me and I am hoping to get some pointers as to how to restructure my plan both reps and weight wise to better tailor my weight training towards endurance

Although I understand that weight training programmes can be highly individual, I am finding it next to impossible to even obtain some general guidelines as to what an endurance oriented weight training plan might consist of.
Any help appreciated, thanks.

[Bob S.]

Although I understand that weight training programmes can be highly individual, I am finding it next to impossible to even obtain some general guidelines as to what an endurance oriented weight training plan might consist of.
Any help appreciated, thanks.

The one weight lifting routine that I have heard of that would specifically improve endurance is circuit training. I have no idea of how many reps should be used nor what percent of your max weight wold be appropriate. There should be a very minimum of break time between the units and it could not be done properly in a crowded gym where there might be a delay in starting any of the units.

Bob S.

[aussieluke]

A link to one of the things I mentioned above.

Get strong without destroying yourself or taking anything away from your erg training.

http://danjohn.net/2013/12/the-forty-day-workout-again/

[Carl Watts]

Not sure I would go for weight training as endurance unless your using low weights and doing loads of non stop reps. Typicality sets of 10 to 15 reps builds strength and you run to failure. This is not very taxing on the cardio system so you find in general those with big muscles at the gym have pretty poor cardio systems.

I agree with hjs, for the 2000m and beyond you don't need as much strength as you do cardio. You can obviously build on this but you also hit limits. What you end up with however is a much better balanced 500m to HM performance that is not like a see saw with great 500m times but no ability to row a HM.

Not sure if you have seen the rise in Crossfit as we have here in New Zealand. I took a repaired PM2 into one last week and was interested in the sort of performances they see on the rower. I thought they would pretty much be focused on events like the 500m for some reason but apparently they do a 60 minute once a week. The typical distances done in that time varied from 15K to 18K apparently but I have to say I was pretty skeptical.

[hjs]

Very often strenght is not the limiting factor, endurance is. For shorter work, 1k and below raw strenght is more important, 2k and above much less so.
If you can pull 15/16 seconds below your 2k av pace you are strong enough. Most ergers can do this, improving this will not help endurance.

Yes, I can pull 15 seconds faster than my 2K avgas split but at best for 500M. So, as I suspected, endurance is the key asset here and so I am looking for some specifics on what sort of weight work I can do that would improve endurance as it does appear that my current regime is not.

Currently I am tending to do 4 sets of diminishing reps which are typically 15, 12, 10, 10 or similar depending on lift being done. The weight used is quite heavy for me and I am hoping to get some pointers as to how to restructure my plan both reps and weight wise to better tailor my weight training towards endurance

Although I understand that weight training programmes can be highly individual, I am finding it next to impossible to even obtain some general guidelines as to what an endurance oriented weight training plan might consist of.
Any help appreciated, thanks.

So you are strong enough for you current 2k pace.

Again, weight will not improve you rowing endurance, just like rowing will not seriously improve your strenght, the two are a bit on the opposite of the training spectre. Weightswork is good though, but for general fitness, much less for specific fitness.
Specific strenghtwork for rowing, is long, low rate sessions, at relative fast pace, think rate 18/20. This trains your endurance strenght.

Your current reps are very generel, bodybuilding kind of stuff. You should expend your rep range to 3/5 after warm up for pure strenght, to 12/20 for supporting exercises.

But again, weights for endurance do not exist, the closest would be circuit training, continues, low weights, high reps work, with no rest.

[lindsayh]

Steve I think the answer is that there are few obvious specific weight programs for endurance mainly because as said above there really isn't a lot of value in doing weights to support endurance training. I agree the best thing is slow heavy strokes for 30/40 minutes to improve power - each stroke is a lying leg press.

I love doing weights though for a number of reasons:
It actually helps build and maintain the muscles that are not exercised by rowing.
It helps a lot with the sprinty stuff
It is great for general fitness and variety in the training
Resistance training and development of muscle mass is really important especially as we age - there are huge long term health benefits.
There is no doubt that people who maintain and build muscle mass live longer that those who don't
Really good for self esteem - I love sometimes out lifting the young guys in the gym and I love the old guy flex in the mirror too!

[G-dub]

I have been pondering this question for a little while and asked a similar one in another thread. If focus is on an endurance sport, such as rowing 2K for best time, weight lifting is used as Lindsey describes and supports your body and your efforts in your sport. As Luke says, strength can be gained without overdoing it energy wise. Putting too much energy with big set combinations and lots of body building reps might have a negative impact on recovery and could create soreness, which would impact endurance training motivation or having energy it seems to me. So doing just enough to get or stay strong and to work the various movement patterns (pull, push, hinge, etc) seems to make sense. And I think it should be included in the time spent training during the week for all the reasons Lindsey mentions plus enhancing mobility encouraging good hormone releases and creating a balanced body.

PS - I'd be curious what book you are referring to.

[Edward4492]

If (and it's a big if) your only goal is to become a good rower then it's simple. Row. There are lots of reasons to lift weights, improving your 2k and beyond isn't one of them. Since we're on the C2 website I'll assume that OTW rowing is not part of the question, but having recently started sculling it becomes even more of a no-brainer based on the technical aspects of perfecting that craft. Any time and energy spent on weights takes away from erging and recovery from erging. OTW there is a penalty for extra weight, you need to haul it around. Take a look at world class road cyclists and 5k and up runners. Contrast their pyhsiques to track cycling sprinters and 100m, 200m track runners. The visual observations alone should be enough to answer the question.

Of course if you're looking for well-rounded fitness, go for it. Do you want to look like a world class marathoner? Or do you want to look like Shawn Baker. For most people the erg is part of a well rounded training program. And the 500m guys need lots of muscle and power, just like a track sprinter.

For me, I want to go fast on the erg (and eventually in a racing shell). So....I row!

And to Carl, real similar experience. I got started with a bunch of crossfitters erging every Sunday morning during the winter. Got up to (25) of us doing anywhere from 10k to an HM. It culminated with eight of us doing a full marathon. As a side note at age 59, I did 3:04, only one 42 yr old youngster got me (with a nice 2:59). Hard to lug that extra muscle around for three hours. But of course I wouldn't attempt even one of their WOD's. I'd be crushed!

[Shawn Baker]

I'll toss in my 2 cents- if you want to get stronger then you will find the most success in the lower rep/heavier weight ranges- of course you have to be mindful of injury- doing high rep weight workouts to improve 2k time is largely going to be a waste of time- (I'll do some high rep stuff very occasionally, often when rehabbing an injury)

As I've come to discover, the best way to develop a more powerful rowing stroke is to go low rate and figure out how to get the split as low as possible-my preference is to do it for a shorter distance before much fatigue sets in and technique changes to compensate for fatigue- example I am currently working towards a 1 min rate 20 row with a 1:28.5 target- only way I get there is by getting strong in gym and maximizing length and get as much power and speed out of drive phase as possible- once you rate up and go after longer distances technique will change somewhat but I think you can retain the basic neuromuscular patterns that got you that low split.

[Edward4492]

Shawn, you have epitomized and documented your strength/ power approach. If your goals were different, say rowing OTW and doing 2k on up (for example, I plan on doing a 6k head race in the fall) would you still be advocating heavy weight training? This is a bit of an unfair question as you simply are NOT training in that direction and have built an enviable well-muscled physique. My biggest problem with lifting heavy was the ability to recover. The weights took time away from the erg and then the next day I was not recovered. I have the same problem with one of the kids I coach. I've had too many sessions where he pounded the weights on a Tues and came up short on the erg on a Wed. Problem is he's fighting for a seat in the JV8 boat this fall.

Anyway, always an interesting discussion.

[G-dub]

Obviously there are exceptions to every rule, but it seems pretty common that strength training is part of how athletes train today, especially compared to the past. The confusion may come from trying to "body build" vs getting functionally stronger or stronger period. The fellow that Luke refers to, Dan John, trains athletes with low rep and less than max training so that they can focus on their activity. And they also get stronger. It also seems being one dimensional as to only row would seem to me to set up great opportunities for injury down the road.

[aussieluke]

Shawn, you have epitomized and documented your strength/ power approach. If your goals were different, say rowing OTW and doing 2k on up (for example, I plan on doing a 6k head race in the fall) would you still be advocating heavy weight training? This is a bit of an unfair question as you simply are NOT training in that direction and have built an enviable well-muscled physique. My biggest problem with lifting heavy was the ability to recover. The weights took time away from the erg and then the next day I was not recovered. I have the same problem with one of the kids I coach. I've had too many sessions where he pounded the weights on a Tues and came up short on the erg on a Wed. Problem is he's fighting for a seat in the JV8 boat this fall.

Anyway, always an interesting discussion.

That was the whole point I was making with the 'Easy Strength' stuff I posted above. It is possible to lift heavy and get strong without causing unnecessary fatigue or soreness, or need for additional recovery or calories etc. The whole point is to get strong while still training for your sport.