Dwyane Adams - Fake Or Real?

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 23rd, 2006, 12:13 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Andreas @ Jan 23 2006, 12:08 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mark<br />Please go and get same sleep!!!!!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Andreas:<br /><br />I will, thanks!<br /><br /> <br /><br />Cheers ... Mark

[old] cbrock · Post by **[old] cbrock** » January 23rd, 2006, 12:18 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 23 2006, 12:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Andreas @ Jan 23 2006, 12:08 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mark<br />Please go and get same sleep!!!!!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Andreas:<br /><br />I will, thanks!<br /><br /> <br /><br />Cheers ... Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mark,<br />Please refer to "Posters Anonymous".<br /><br />I went and saw my doctor and he said the symptoms were obvious.<br /><br />I've got POST traumatic stress.<br /><br />I could be wrong but the diagnosis could apply to you as well.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Chris<br /><br /><br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 23rd, 2006, 12:20 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 07:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I take issue with your insinuation that I just fell off the turnip truck last evening. </td></tr></table><br /><br />We will need some verification of this.<br /><br />A photo will be nice, and several expert witnesses.<br /><br />A videotape will be even better.

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 23rd, 2006, 12:20 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(cbrock @ Jan 23 2006, 12:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 23 2006, 12:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Andreas @ Jan 23 2006, 12:08 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Mark<br />Please go and get same sleep!!!!!! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Andreas:<br /><br />I will, thanks!<br /><br /> <br /><br />Cheers ... Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mark,<br />Please refer to "Posters Anonymous".<br /><br />I went and saw my doctor and he said the symptoms were obvious.<br /><br />I've got POST traumatic stress.<br /><br />I could be wrong but the diagnosis could apply to you as well.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Chris <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Chris:<br /><br />All I can "say" is"<br /><br /> <br /><br />Thanks -- Mark<br />

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 23rd, 2006, 12:22 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 23 2006, 12:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 07:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I take issue with your insinuation that I just fell off the turnip truck last evening. </td></tr></table><br /><br />We will need some verification of this.<br /><br />A photo will be nice, and several expert witnesses.<br /><br />A videotape will be even better. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />How about a few rotten turnips John?<br /><br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 23rd, 2006, 12:25 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 08:22 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>How about a few rotten turnips John?<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br />No thanks Mark! <br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 23rd, 2006, 12:26 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(cbrock @ Jan 22 2006, 08:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I've got POST traumatic stress. </td></tr></table> <br />

[old] mpukita · Post by **[old] mpukita** » January 23rd, 2006, 12:30 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 23 2006, 12:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 08:22 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>How about a few rotten turnips John?<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br />No thanks Mark! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Actually John, roasted turnips are awesome. You can eat them roasted only, or mash them after roasting them ... with a little butter, milk, yogurt, whatever you like. We do lots of root vegetables in fall/winter here, and they are great. Out there, I'd bet you'd get much fresher produce.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 23rd, 2006, 2:12 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Even Ranger, who has indisputably turned in world class performances in the past, needs to put up or shut up about what he can do now. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thanks for the statement, Mike. Well said. You are also right about this quote here, and I will indeed try to do something about it over the next month.<br /><br />My situation is pretty different from Dwayne's, though. I have raced a dozen times in public. My accomplishments are absolutely legit. I have won all the major championsips, including a hammer, and I still have two of the major championshiip records. Lately, I haven't been racing, so I have just been talking about workouts and goals and learning how to row. I haven't been racing at all, much less misreporting my results.<br /><br />I think the forum is a great place to work out thoughts about how you are trying to get where you want to go, and to get feedback on those thoughts. For me, this is part of what training is all about.<br /><br />I didn't take a hiatus from racing for no reason. I have been trying to get better.<br /><br />ranger

[old] Chad Williams · Post by **[old] Chad Williams** » January 23rd, 2006, 2:23 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Caviston @ Jan 22 2006, 07:45 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Well, Common Sense has been telling me to stay out of this, but Conscience has been nagging me to give my opinion. So FWIW, here it is: I think Chad has been absolutely right to doubt Dwayne’s times. I think polls are silly, and don’t participate, but I’ve always been skeptical (i.e. dubious or unconvinced) of Dwayne. Chad could have phrased his initial question a bit better (which he has admitted), and some of his responses have been pretty crude. Given some of the emotional attacks he’s received, I doubt I would have handled myself any better. I see plenty of opportunities for many people to question their own motives and behavior.<br /><br />I think there is a clear distinction between questioning someone’s claims and calling them a liar or a cheat. The sports arena is different from a court of law. An alleged criminal is innocent until proven guilty. In sport, we don’t assume an athlete is capable of a certain performance and remain convinced unless someone proves he isn’t. Asking for proof isn’t the same as claiming the performance didn’t or couldn’t happen. It is asking for positive verification on a matter that some people take quite seriously. Olympians or athletes at many world or national championships are expected to provide urine or blood samples to prove they haven’t used banned performance-enhancing substances. Do we really interpret that as “You’re all cheaters until you prove you’re not”? Anyone who has made the claims that Dwayne has should be prepared to hear people say, “Not that I’m doubting you or anything, but – prove it.” <br /><br />I have absolutely nothing against Dwayne. I’ve traveled with him twice to Europe with the USIRT. He is in fact a very nice guy. But – so what? Does the fact that someone is very supportive of others and their training, and always wishes everyone a Happy Birthday, somehow guarantee that all their claims must be true? Would a con artist appear openly sleazy and fraudulent, or would they attempt to gain trust? Little old ladies get swindled out of their social security checks and tell the police “But he seemed like such a <i>nice</i> man…” Hey, I’m not saying that being nice is necessarily a <i>bad</i> thing; it just doesn’t verify anyone’s erg scores.<br /><br />Why do some people around here seem to react so violently to the idea that anyone involved with Indoor Rowing might actually cheat? As if this little corner of the world were somehow immune from that basic human fault. People cheat. They cheat on their taxes, they cheat in school, they cheat on their spouses. Cheating and lying occur in sports at all levels. People lie about their golf games, about how much they can bench press, and about how many touchdowns they scored in high school. Parents have lied about their kids’ ages to get them into easier divisions. Runners have taken shortcuts during races. Coaches have influenced judges. Pitchers have doctored baseballs and batters have corked their bats. Even disabled athletes have lied about the severity of their disabilities to be more competitive in a particular category! And then there’s the whole issue of illegal drugs. But cheaters aren’t represented in the Indoor Rowing community to the same degree as elsewhere? Please! And why do people cheat? As often as not, because they can. What could be simpler or less risky than typing a false score onto a web page? <br /><br />As for Dwayne, I can’t get past the fact that in four venue races, he has never broken 7:00. Sick or injured once? Can happen to anyone. Twice? Bad luck. But <b>four times?</b> And never an attempt to get in one healthy performance at Boston or some other venue? Man, I just don’t know. It would just take one solid confirmed row to establish a bit of credibility for any of the fantastic times he’s claimed for all the ranking distances. The various inconsistencies with some of these claims have essentially been ignored. Regarding the veracity of some of Dwayne’s reported 2K times, I see room for doubt in every single case. That’s not claiming that Dwayne lied. It’s just stating there is not sufficient proof to recognize the performance. Although no one from Concept2 has made a statement on this thread, their position is clear. They didn’t recognize Dwayne’s previous claim on the M40HW record. Meanwhile, since C2’s statement about world records needing to be set at official events, they have recognized at least two new records that were set under similar circumstances and with fewer witnesses than Dwayne has claimed. (The notion that Concept2 would deliberately isolate Dwayne and refuse to recognize a credible performance is more outrageous than the notion that Dwayne could possibly lie.) <br /><br />Some say, “What’s the big deal? Even if someone does make a false claim, they’re only hurting themselves.” I’m struggling with how anyone can embrace this sentiment and claim that the ranking lists have any value at all. If there is value in seeing your name ranked among your peers, and if someone is falsely ranked, then clearly false rankings hurt everyone else on the list. And if someone claims to be at the top of the list – so far at the top of the list as to be statistically improbable – then that claim bears scrutiny. Dwayne competes (no – he <i>doesn’t</i> compete) in what is the most competitive category in Indoor Rowing, IMHO. Dwayne claims to be faster than Tom Bohrer, Andreas van Tonder, Jurgen Schwab, Antii Niskanen, Brian Burke, Mike Connors, John Dixon, Chris Ives, John Grady, Poul Bysted, Grant Biggar, and many others who have all proved their abilities in open competition – including of course Pertti Karpinnen. Any of these people who read the C2 forums and see all the discussion about what a remarkable athlete Dwayne is have the right to say “Wait a minute – what has he ever actually <b>shown</b> he can do?” Heck, even Steve Hargis, who finished 41st at CRASH-B last year in the senior HW event with a time of 7:00.0 has the right to say that. I don’t claim to know about any martial arts code, but my understanding of the Indoor Rowing code is you don’t make claims you can’t prove. You owe it to your competitors. And what about the possibility of somebody dispensing advice that others might follow, based on the premise that the person with the advice has actually done what they claim to have done? I see the potential for harm there.<br /><br />Let me put it another way. If Dwayne were a lightweight and claimed to have rowed 6:13 under similar circumstances (no completed races, no incontrovertible proof) and I came on the forum and saw him get the kind of adulation he does, I’d be pretty upset. I don’t know how I’d express it, but I would definitely feel it. Or I can give a more concrete example. Last year I won the WIRC in the senior LW division. If you look at the 2005 ranked 2Ks for 40-49 LW men, the fastest time listed is by Rob Ezold of Clinton, TN. I’m second. During the weeks prior to CRASH-B, I had noticed Rob had posted a time in the 6:20s and that he had registered for the race on RegattaCentral. So I pegged him as one to watch. Ultimately he didn’t attend the race, but two weeks later he posted a time faster than my gold medal time. Now, I have absolutely no basis for doubting Rob’s time. I don’t know anything about him, and I am not claiming he didn’t pull that score. For all I know he was psyched to come to CRASH-Bs but something came up and he couldn’t attend but still wanted to leave some record of his hard work and preparation. But it bugs me a little that someone might look at the ranking page and say, “Oh, this Ezold guy is the fastest senior lightweight in the world”, even though he didn’t prove it during the same trial by fire as me. Just below my name on the ranking list is Kent Timm, who for the past few years has ranked scores for 500m, 1K, 6K and 60’ that are all faster than I could ever do. He always ranks a 2K time just a little slower than me. I’m not sure what’s up with that, but a cynical interpretation is that most people won’t have a frame of reference for the other distances but he’s afraid to make too fantastic a claim for a distance that features public competition. To my knowledge, Timm has never raced at a venue. Now, I don’t care too much about any of this because not too many people really pay that much attention to the rankings anyway. But the point I am making is that if either Ezold or Timm came on the forum regularly to talk about their accomplishments and got the kind of response Dwayne does from his admirers, I’d be upset. Call me childish or petty, but that’s the way it is. <br /><br />And BTW, I think my response is pretty typical of people that attend major races and finish in the medals. We talk. We talk about issues like this. And I would also be willing to bet any amount of money you could not find anyone associated with Concept2 who would be willing to say they accept the claims Dwayne has made (2K, total meters, other distances, etc.) without question.<br /><br />Anybody who makes claims about fantastic performances should be prepared to back them up with solid proof. I’ve laughed for years at people who’ve taken Rod Freed seriously. Even Ranger, who has indisputably turned in world class performances in the past, needs to put up or shut up about what he can do now. And Dwayne doesn’t have the benefit of a past race to pin his claims on. If in the future Dwayne can provide solid proof of a fast time, then I’ll offer my congratulations along with everyone else. But I don’t care if Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed all show up to certify the results, I won’t feel guilty for doubting him until now. And regardless of what someone does in an isolated time trial, the only way to be recognized as the very best is to defeat all comers in open competition. Dwayne needs to show up in Boston one of these years.<br /><br />Based on all the emotional responses to this topic so far, my opinions are clearly going to offend some people and maybe cost me some good will on the forum. That’s unfortunate. I didn’t ask for this issue to come along, but given that it did I had to say my piece.<br /><br />Mike Caviston <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thank you for your input Mike, If I was more educated, that is how I would have put it in the first place, even so, we both make the same point.

[old] hennmart · Post by **[old] hennmart** » January 23rd, 2006, 4:13 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Caviston @ Jan 23 2006, 02:45 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Based on all the emotional responses to this topic so far, my opinions are clearly going to offend some people and maybe cost me some good will on the forum. That’s unfortunate. I didn’t ask for this issue to come along, but given that it did I had to say my piece.<br /><br />Mike Caviston <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Well said!!<br /><br />Hennie

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » January 23rd, 2006, 4:45 am

Simply and direct Mike.<br /><br />It's just the way you say it. Nomatter how nice a guy may be, in sports you show what you can do. Posting the time's as some people do for years and never show it in public can also be seen as an insult to does who do show up at the events. <br />If the rankings are important enough to put your name on than you should also be willing to show it.<br /><br />

[old] german answer · Post by **[old] german answer** » January 23rd, 2006, 4:55 am

Whow what a statement of Mike,<br /><br />first of all, does it matter whether the times of Dwayne are true or not.<br />But indeed, this give us here in germany a lot of motivation. I don´t think that it make sense to discuss, whether the times are true or not.<br /><br />The times show us that there is a lot of potential in us and we should try to do our best. All the over 40 guys which race in the championships are hot to beat there pb´s and made monster races.<br /><br />But the thing is, if someone is better than us, we don´t trust him. Silly and stupid! Why? I tell you what: Let Dwayne puplicate a Sub 5:50 or not, the only think that counts is the race! Face to face, and if you have a worse day (like me last year you will be beaten. THAT IS WHAT COUNTS, nothing else!<br /><br />Jürgen Schwab<br /><br />Notice:´Big Ralf E.` did an easy 6:02 in Stuttgart this week end, and he will kick Dwaynes ass, when he will race in bad shape in Boston.

[old] becz · Post by **[old] becz** » January 23rd, 2006, 8:25 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 10:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(becz @ Jan 22 2006, 11:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 09:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>But, for someone to come here, and make accusations impuning another's integrity, with no <b>FACTUAL </b>basis, well, I feel you'd agree, that is reprehensible. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />You keep making statements like this, and I find it hard to get my head around it. The FACTS are that Dwayne has claimed to row TWO (no, wait, now THREE) sub 5:50 2k pieces, yet in FOUR tries in public has not come anywhere near those time even ONCE. THOSE ARE THE FACTS. As I said to someone else in a PM, when you then add in all the other weird FACTS (like giving away the PM3 provided to you so you can rank your erg times, getting back from business travel in Asia and banging out a 6:01 USIRT test piece, rowing (on average) 44,000 meters per day without a break), things get hard to swallow. Those are the FACTS that lead to the questioning. Please stop saying there were no FACTS to support what got this whole thing started.<br /><br />What do you think Dwayne would have said if Chad had sent him an email in private saying "Hey, Dwayne, top notch scores, dude. Did you really pull those times?" I'm sure the reply would have been something like "Yup, sure did! Keep at it man, just do your best, maybe someday you can pull those scores, too!" Sometime the only way to get to the truth is to throw all of the FACTS out there in public for everyone to see.<br /><br />I think part of the problem (and I'm being serious here) is that you haven't been in the sport of rowing for very long. I've been rowing on and off the water for almost 20 years now, and I think it's longer for Mike, plus he helps coach a nationally ranked crew, and well as being a world class athlete himself. Our bull-sh*t meters are set pretty high at this point as far as the rowing world goes. You come to have a pretty good idea about what the facts are, and I'll say it again, either the circumstances surrounding the differences between publicly demonstrated ability and posted times are astronomically unusual, or something is not right. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Sandor:<br /><br />Thanks for the message.<br /><br />I had a boss once, his boss was giving him a hard time ... and his boss was a moron. He kept telling my boss about how much experience he had ... etc. etc. My boss had a great response. His question was simply this, "We're you ever really any good at it?" <br /><br />I respect accomplishment like Mike's. But, for someone like you to just say, I have more years here than you, is, in my mind, baloney. You have no idea what I know about rowing, or how I participated in the sport before I started ERGING, or got here, now do you? If you do, please share it with me. Tell me how many times I've been to Henley ... Schoolboys ... who I know in the sport ... how many Olympians I've spent time with and questioned on technique. Go ahead and do it in public, right here. I'm no moron Sandor ... and I take issue with your insinuation that I just fell off the turnip truck last evening.<br /><br />Your response is that of someone who's run out of logic, so now you'll impune my knowledge or whatever.<br /><br />I really don't give a hoot if your s-meter is set high. Chad accused someone of being a cheat, with no FACTUAL evidence. That's a FACT. No emotion, no feelings, no baloney. He's proven himself to be a cad, a liar, a deceiver, and a coward. That's a fact.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Regards -- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I made the comment about experience based on posts I've seen from you in other threads. If I made too many assumptions, I apologize. If you'd like to share how much experience you have, I'll tell you mine. Let's leave it at that. And please stop dishing the "you've run out of logic" kind of rhetoric. It's getting old. You never addressed the rest of my post. I think it was quite logical, and FACTUAL.<br /><br />And by the way, now that Mike Caviston has expressed doubt about Dwayne's times in a public forum, yet has not "condemned" Chad for what he posted, I'm sure you will add him to the list of people who you consider "maybe even worse" than Chad. So I'm sure you will therefore add him to the list of people who you will tell your daughter exhibits qualities she should not emulate. N'est pas?

[old] Chad Williams · Post by **[old] Chad Williams** » January 23rd, 2006, 8:30 am

Time goes very slow when you are waiting for something. What time does C2 open?<br /><br />I want to see this 5.46.2 IND_V or not see it, what ever the case me be.<br /><br />

Concept2 Forum

Dwyane Adams - Fake Or Real?

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