Dwyane Adams - Fake Or Real?

[[old] TomR/the elder]

Dave,<br /><br />thanx. <br /><br />So you could do intervals and beat the system, but a reliable witness and a screen shot eliminate any doubt.<br /><br />Sorry to make you talk slow. I can sometimes spell, but can't do technical.<br />'<br />Tom

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-VTSkier+Jan 22 2006, 07:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(VTSkier @ Jan 22 2006, 07:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 22 2006, 06:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 06:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Jan 22 2006, 07:20 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Jan 22 2006, 07:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seeking clarification:<br /><br />1) I saw this in the verification protocol Mark cited:<br /><br />"Your witness contact information"<br /><br />Does that mean a top-ranking row <u>must</u> be witnessed? <br /><br />2) Earlier, there was some discussion about how a person might game the PM3. The conclusion was no clear to me. Is verification from the monitor alone fool-proof?<br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Tom:<br /><br />From what I read, I believe that to have a top 3 ranking <b>verified</b> it needs to be witnessed, but I'm not certain.<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Mark,<br /><br />My wife is seat5 (Carla), so I'm very much up on what is needed for top-3 rankings.<br /><br />A code needs to be obtained from Dena at C2. This code is used for one season (Carla said "I think..." on that). Each time you row, you get the verification code (16 hexadecimal digits) for that particular piece from the PM3. You can then enter the piece in your logbook, edit in the verification code, and then rank the piece. It then immediately shows IND_V.<br /><br />But if you haven't done a PM3 verified piece, you tend to mess up the entry. You have to edit the entry after logging it in order to put in the verification code. Editing it automatically unranks it. After that, you rank it again. Kind of confusing...<br /><br />Regards,<br />Dave <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Dave:<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification ... I forgot that Carla is Carla, and that she's got some world class rankings ... to me, she's just seat5, a female rower I can't beat!<br /><br /> <br /><br />She's also very "cool".<br /><br />And, she is fast ... can you ever catch her?<br /><br />I see the ski reference ... are you guys big skiers? I'm a huge alpine devotee ... not Nordic (yet). I do want to do the nordic thing, but Columbus, Ohio ... well ... you know. I was in Austria skiing last season ... the nordic tracks in every town were amazing ... very neat.<br /><br />Regards -- Mark

[[old] Mike Caviston]

Well, Common Sense has been telling me to stay out of this, but Conscience has been nagging me to give my opinion. So FWIW, here it is: I think Chad has been absolutely right to doubt Dwayne’s times. I think polls are silly, and don’t participate, but I’ve always been skeptical (i.e. dubious or unconvinced) of Dwayne. Chad could have phrased his initial question a bit better (which he has admitted), and some of his responses have been pretty crude. Given some of the emotional attacks he’s received, I doubt I would have handled myself any better. I see plenty of opportunities for many people to question their own motives and behavior.<br /><br />I think there is a clear distinction between questioning someone’s claims and calling them a liar or a cheat. The sports arena is different from a court of law. An alleged criminal is innocent until proven guilty. In sport, we don’t assume an athlete is capable of a certain performance and remain convinced unless someone proves he isn’t. Asking for proof isn’t the same as claiming the performance didn’t or couldn’t happen. It is asking for positive verification on a matter that some people take quite seriously. Olympians or athletes at many world or national championships are expected to provide urine or blood samples to prove they haven’t used banned performance-enhancing substances. Do we really interpret that as “You’re all cheaters until you prove you’re not”? Anyone who has made the claims that Dwayne has should be prepared to hear people say, “Not that I’m doubting you or anything, but – prove it.” <br /><br />I have absolutely nothing against Dwayne. I’ve traveled with him twice to Europe with the USIRT. He is in fact a very nice guy. But – so what? Does the fact that someone is very supportive of others and their training, and always wishes everyone a Happy Birthday, somehow guarantee that all their claims must be true? Would a con artist appear openly sleazy and fraudulent, or would they attempt to gain trust? Little old ladies get swindled out of their social security checks and tell the police “But he seemed like such a <i>nice</i> man…” Hey, I’m not saying that being nice is necessarily a <i>bad</i> thing; it just doesn’t verify anyone’s erg scores.<br /><br />Why do some people around here seem to react so violently to the idea that anyone involved with Indoor Rowing might actually cheat? As if this little corner of the world were somehow immune from that basic human fault. People cheat. They cheat on their taxes, they cheat in school, they cheat on their spouses. Cheating and lying occur in sports at all levels. People lie about their golf games, about how much they can bench press, and about how many touchdowns they scored in high school. Parents have lied about their kids’ ages to get them into easier divisions. Runners have taken shortcuts during races. Coaches have influenced judges. Pitchers have doctored baseballs and batters have corked their bats. Even disabled athletes have lied about the severity of their disabilities to be more competitive in a particular category! And then there’s the whole issue of illegal drugs. But cheaters aren’t represented in the Indoor Rowing community to the same degree as elsewhere? Please! And why do people cheat? As often as not, because they can. What could be simpler or less risky than typing a false score onto a web page? <br /><br />As for Dwayne, I can’t get past the fact that in four venue races, he has never broken 7:00. Sick or injured once? Can happen to anyone. Twice? Bad luck. But <b>four times?</b> And never an attempt to get in one healthy performance at Boston or some other venue? Man, I just don’t know. It would just take one solid confirmed row to establish a bit of credibility for any of the fantastic times he’s claimed for all the ranking distances. The various inconsistencies with some of these claims have essentially been ignored. Regarding the veracity of some of Dwayne’s reported 2K times, I see room for doubt in every single case. That’s not claiming that Dwayne lied. It’s just stating there is not sufficient proof to recognize the performance. Although no one from Concept2 has made a statement on this thread, their position is clear. They didn’t recognize Dwayne’s previous claim on the M40HW record. Meanwhile, since C2’s statement about world records needing to be set at official events, they have recognized at least two new records that were set under similar circumstances and with fewer witnesses than Dwayne has claimed. (The notion that Concept2 would deliberately isolate Dwayne and refuse to recognize a credible performance is more outrageous than the notion that Dwayne could possibly lie.) <br /><br />Some say, “What’s the big deal? Even if someone does make a false claim, they’re only hurting themselves.” I’m struggling with how anyone can embrace this sentiment and claim that the ranking lists have any value at all. If there is value in seeing your name ranked among your peers, and if someone is falsely ranked, then clearly false rankings hurt everyone else on the list. And if someone claims to be at the top of the list – so far at the top of the list as to be statistically improbable – then that claim bears scrutiny. Dwayne competes (no – he <i>doesn’t</i> compete) in what is the most competitive category in Indoor Rowing, IMHO. Dwayne claims to be faster than Tom Bohrer, Andreas van Tonder, Jurgen Schwab, Antii Niskanen, Brian Burke, Mike Connors, John Dixon, Chris Ives, John Grady, Poul Bysted, Grant Biggar, and many others who have all proved their abilities in open competition – including of course Pertti Karpinnen. Any of these people who read the C2 forums and see all the discussion about what a remarkable athlete Dwayne is have the right to say “Wait a minute – what has he ever actually <b>shown</b> he can do?” Heck, even Steve Hargis, who finished 41st at CRASH-B last year in the senior HW event with a time of 7:00.0 has the right to say that. I don’t claim to know about any martial arts code, but my understanding of the Indoor Rowing code is you don’t make claims you can’t prove. You owe it to your competitors. And what about the possibility of somebody dispensing advice that others might follow, based on the premise that the person with the advice has actually done what they claim to have done? I see the potential for harm there.<br /><br />Let me put it another way. If Dwayne were a lightweight and claimed to have rowed 6:13 under similar circumstances (no completed races, no incontrovertible proof) and I came on the forum and saw him get the kind of adulation he does, I’d be pretty upset. I don’t know how I’d express it, but I would definitely feel it. Or I can give a more concrete example. Last year I won the WIRC in the senior LW division. If you look at the 2005 ranked 2Ks for 40-49 LW men, the fastest time listed is by Rob Ezold of Clinton, TN. I’m second. During the weeks prior to CRASH-B, I had noticed Rob had posted a time in the 6:20s and that he had registered for the race on RegattaCentral. So I pegged him as one to watch. Ultimately he didn’t attend the race, but two weeks later he posted a time faster than my gold medal time. Now, I have absolutely no basis for doubting Rob’s time. I don’t know anything about him, and I am not claiming he didn’t pull that score. For all I know he was psyched to come to CRASH-Bs but something came up and he couldn’t attend but still wanted to leave some record of his hard work and preparation. But it bugs me a little that someone might look at the ranking page and say, “Oh, this Ezold guy is the fastest senior lightweight in the world”, even though he didn’t prove it during the same trial by fire as me. Just below my name on the ranking list is Kent Timm, who for the past few years has ranked scores for 500m, 1K, 6K and 60’ that are all faster than I could ever do. He always ranks a 2K time just a little slower than me. I’m not sure what’s up with that, but a cynical interpretation is that most people won’t have a frame of reference for the other distances but he’s afraid to make too fantastic a claim for a distance that features public competition. To my knowledge, Timm has never raced at a venue. Now, I don’t care too much about any of this because not too many people really pay that much attention to the rankings anyway. But the point I am making is that if either Ezold or Timm came on the forum regularly to talk about their accomplishments and got the kind of response Dwayne does from his admirers, I’d be upset. Call me childish or petty, but that’s the way it is. <br /><br />And BTW, I think my response is pretty typical of people that attend major races and finish in the medals. We talk. We talk about issues like this. And I would also be willing to bet any amount of money you could not find anyone associated with Concept2 who would be willing to say they accept the claims Dwayne has made (2K, total meters, other distances, etc.) without question.<br /><br />Anybody who makes claims about fantastic performances should be prepared to back them up with solid proof. I’ve laughed for years at people who’ve taken Rod Freed seriously. Even Ranger, who has indisputably turned in world class performances in the past, needs to put up or shut up about what he can do now. And Dwayne doesn’t have the benefit of a past race to pin his claims on. If in the future Dwayne can provide solid proof of a fast time, then I’ll offer my congratulations along with everyone else. But I don’t care if Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed all show up to certify the results, I won’t feel guilty for doubting him until now. And regardless of what someone does in an isolated time trial, the only way to be recognized as the very best is to defeat all comers in open competition. Dwayne needs to show up in Boston one of these years.<br /><br />Based on all the emotional responses to this topic so far, my opinions are clearly going to offend some people and maybe cost me some good will on the forum. That’s unfortunate. I didn’t ask for this issue to come along, but given that it did I had to say my piece.<br /><br />Mike Caviston<br />

[[old] VTSkier]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 22 2006, 06:53 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 06:53 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-VTSkier+Jan 22 2006, 07:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(VTSkier @ Jan 22 2006, 07:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 22 2006, 06:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 06:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Jan 22 2006, 07:20 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Jan 22 2006, 07:20 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seeking clarification:<br /><br />1) I saw this in the verification protocol Mark cited:<br /><br />"Your witness contact information"<br /><br />Does that mean a top-ranking row <u>must</u> be witnessed? <br /><br />2) Earlier, there was some discussion about how a person might game the PM3. The conclusion was no clear to me. Is verification from the monitor alone fool-proof?<br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Tom:<br /><br />From what I read, I believe that to have a top 3 ranking <b>verified</b> it needs to be witnessed, but I'm not certain.<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Mark,<br /><br />My wife is seat5 (Carla), so I'm very much up on what is needed for top-3 rankings.<br /><br />A code needs to be obtained from Dena at C2. This code is used for one season (Carla said "I think..." on that). Each time you row, you get the verification code (16 hexadecimal digits) for that particular piece from the PM3. You can then enter the piece in your logbook, edit in the verification code, and then rank the piece. It then immediately shows IND_V.<br /><br />But if you haven't done a PM3 verified piece, you tend to mess up the entry. You have to edit the entry after logging it in order to put in the verification code. Editing it automatically unranks it. After that, you rank it again. Kind of confusing...<br /><br />Regards,<br />Dave <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Dave:<br /><br />Thanks for the clarification ... I forgot that Carla is Carla, and that she's got some world class rankings ... to me, she's just seat5, a female rower I can't beat!<br /><br /> <br /><br />She's also very "cool".<br /><br />And, she is fast ... can you ever catch her?<br /><br />I see the ski reference ... are you guys big skiers? I'm a huge alpine devotee ... not Nordic (yet). I do want to do the nordic thing, but Columbus, Ohio ... well ... you know. I was in Austria skiing last season ... the nordic tracks in every town were amazing ... very neat.<br /><br />Regards -- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mark,<br /><br />Catch her on the erg? Are you kidding? Not a chance at this time without quite a bit of serious training, which I do not have the time to do (or the inclination). It is also impossible for me to keep up with her on the uphills when we're biking. She just motors up the hill and leaves me behind calling out "wait for me at the top!?". My sister who bikes with her on the Zippy Women's bike trip calls her "the machine".<br /><br />Carla skied with me and the kids when they were little but a skiing injury convinced her that enough was enough... I think she said "I like skiing but I don't like the pain". So now I go with the kids. Our daughter has now skied Tuckerman Ravine with me the last two springs and will again this year. I've been skiing Tucks since 1969, so yes, I guess you could say I'm a big skier... We normally ski Mad River Glen in Vermont (I'm a shareholder)... If you're ever east skiing, give us a yell.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Dave<br />

[[old] george nz]

Mike well said !!<br /><br />George

[[old] FrancoisA]

Mike,<br /><br />It sometimes takes a lot of courage to follow one's conscience as it is rarely the easiest path. You are a man of principles. <br /><br />Thanks for this last post. <br /><br />Francois

[[old] mpukita]

Mike:<br /><br />Great response. Thanks.<br /><br />My beef is simply this. It's OK to <b>doubt </b>and <b>question </b>performances, especially at your level of performance. I have no problem with that.<br /><br />But, for someone to come here, and make accusations impuning another's integrity, with no <b>FACTUAL </b>basis, well, I feel you'd agree, that is reprehensible.<br /><br />Doubting Dwayne's performances is fine. Calling him a liar, directly or indirectly, with no proof, is not. And Chad did that.<br /><br />Wouldn't you agree?<br /><br />Thanks -- Mark

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 22 2006, 03:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 22 2006, 03:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I am off to do my 90" (rate not given) piece. I wait for the door of C2 to open. I will be off line now for a few hours, I thought I would tell you this as people seem to like to log how many hours I am on line on this forum. I don't log myself out just to let you know.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What would rate matter for a 2.29m piece, or is that 90 seconds? Good luck with it though, thanks for sharing. <br /><br />Yes, just being entertaining since you won't give your obviously simple answer to my question. Though that bit where you are claiming credit for a great service to the Erging Community, that was priceless.

[[old] FrancoisA]

I have just noticed that Dwayne's 5:46 row no longer appears in the ranking.

[[old] becz]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 22 2006, 09:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 09:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But, for someone to come here, and make accusations impuning another's integrity, with no <b>FACTUAL </b>basis, well, I feel you'd agree, that is reprehensible. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />You keep making statements like this, and I find it hard to get my head around it. The FACTS are that Dwayne has claimed to row TWO (no, wait, now THREE) sub 5:50 2k pieces, yet in FOUR tries in public has not come anywhere near those time even ONCE. THOSE ARE THE FACTS. As I said to someone else in a PM, when you then add in all the other weird FACTS (like giving away the PM3 provided to you so you can rank your erg times, getting back from business travel in Asia and banging out a 6:01 USIRT test piece, rowing (on average) 44,000 meters per day without a break), things get hard to swallow. Those are the FACTS that lead to the questioning. Please stop saying there were no FACTS to support what got this whole thing started.<br /><br />What do you think Dwayne would have said if Chad had sent him an email in private saying "Hey, Dwayne, top notch scores, dude. Did you really pull those times?" I'm sure the reply would have been something like "Yup, sure did! Keep at it man, just do your best, maybe someday you can pull those scores, too!" Sometime the only way to get to the truth is to throw all of the FACTS out there in public for everyone to see.<br /><br />I think part of the problem (and I'm being serious here) is that you haven't been in the sport of rowing for very long. I've been rowing on and off the water for almost 20 years now, and I think it's longer for Mike, plus he helps coach a nationally ranked crew, and well as being a world class athlete himself. Our bull-sh*t meters are set pretty high at this point as far as the rowing world goes. You come to have a pretty good idea about what the facts are, and I'll say it again, either the circumstances surrounding the differences between publicly demonstrated ability and posted times are astronomically unusual, or something is not right.

[[old] seat5]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Jan 23 2006, 03:17 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 23 2006, 03:17 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have just noticed that Dwayne's 5:46 row no longer appears in the ranking. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />He's probably edited it to add the verification code but hasn't re-ranked it. Editing it removes it from the ranking. And then you sometimes have to close the log and open it again for it to show up, ranked with the IND_V.

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-seat5+Jan 23 2006, 03:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5 @ Jan 23 2006, 03:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Jan 23 2006, 03:17 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Jan 23 2006, 03:17 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have just noticed that Dwayne's 5:46 row no longer appears in the ranking. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />He's probably edited it to add the verification code but hasn't re-ranked it. Editing it removes it from the ranking. And then you sometimes have to close the log and open it again for it to show up, ranked with the IND_V. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You are probably right; I have noticed that his 500m and 1000m have the IND_V now.

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-becz+Jan 22 2006, 11:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(becz @ Jan 22 2006, 11:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 22 2006, 09:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 09:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But, for someone to come here, and make accusations impuning another's integrity, with no <b>FACTUAL </b>basis, well, I feel you'd agree, that is reprehensible. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />You keep making statements like this, and I find it hard to get my head around it. The FACTS are that Dwayne has claimed to row TWO (no, wait, now THREE) sub 5:50 2k pieces, yet in FOUR tries in public has not come anywhere near those time even ONCE. THOSE ARE THE FACTS. As I said to someone else in a PM, when you then add in all the other weird FACTS (like giving away the PM3 provided to you so you can rank your erg times, getting back from business travel in Asia and banging out a 6:01 USIRT test piece, rowing (on average) 44,000 meters per day without a break), things get hard to swallow. Those are the FACTS that lead to the questioning. Please stop saying there were no FACTS to support what got this whole thing started.<br /><br />What do you think Dwayne would have said if Chad had sent him an email in private saying "Hey, Dwayne, top notch scores, dude. Did you really pull those times?" I'm sure the reply would have been something like "Yup, sure did! Keep at it man, just do your best, maybe someday you can pull those scores, too!" Sometime the only way to get to the truth is to throw all of the FACTS out there in public for everyone to see.<br /><br />I think part of the problem (and I'm being serious here) is that you haven't been in the sport of rowing for very long. I've been rowing on and off the water for almost 20 years now, and I think it's longer for Mike, plus he helps coach a nationally ranked crew, and well as being a world class athlete himself. Our bull-sh*t meters are set pretty high at this point as far as the rowing world goes. You come to have a pretty good idea about what the facts are, and I'll say it again, either the circumstances surrounding the differences between publicly demonstrated ability and posted times are astronomically unusual, or something is not right. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Sandor:<br /><br />Thanks for the message.<br /><br />I had a boss once, his boss was giving him a hard time ... and his boss was a moron. He kept telling my boss about how much experience he had ... etc. etc. My boss had a great response. His question was simply this, "We're you ever really any good at it?" <br /><br />I respect accomplishment like Mike's. But, for someone like you to just say, I have more years here than you, is, in my mind, baloney. You have no idea what I know about rowing, or how I participated in the sport before I started ERGING, or got here, now do you? If you do, please share it with me. Tell me how many times I've been to Henley ... Schoolboys ... who I know in the sport ... how many Olympians I've spent time with and questioned on technique. Go ahead and do it in public, right here. I'm no moron Sandor ... and I take issue with your insinuation that I just fell off the turnip truck last evening.<br /><br />Your response is that of someone who's run out of logic, so now you'll impune my knowledge or whatever.<br /><br />I really don't give a hoot if your s-meter is set high. Chad accused someone of being a cheat, with no FACTUAL evidence. That's a FACT. No emotion, no feelings, no baloney. He's proven himself to be a cad, a liar, a deceiver, and a coward. That's a fact.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Regards -- Mark

[[old] Andreas]

<!--QuoteBegin-Mike Caviston+Jan 22 2006, 07:45 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Mike Caviston @ Jan 22 2006, 07:45 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, Common Sense has been telling me to stay out of this, but Conscience has been nagging me to give my opinion.  So FWIW, here it is:  I think Chad has been absolutely right to doubt Dwayne’s times.  I think polls are silly, and don’t participate, but I’ve always been skeptical (i.e. dubious or unconvinced) of Dwayne.  Chad could have phrased his initial question a bit better (which he has admitted), and some of his responses have been pretty crude.  Given some of the emotional attacks he’s received, I doubt I would have handled myself any better.  I see plenty of opportunities for many people to question their own motives and behavior.<br /><br />I think there is a clear distinction between questioning someone’s claims and calling them a liar or a cheat.  The sports arena is different from a court of law.  An alleged criminal is innocent until proven guilty.  In sport, we don’t assume an athlete is capable of a certain performance and remain convinced unless someone proves he isn’t.  Asking for proof isn’t the same as claiming the performance didn’t or couldn’t happen.  It is asking for positive verification on a matter that some people take quite seriously.  Olympians or athletes at many world or national championships are expected to provide urine or blood samples to prove they haven’t used banned performance-enhancing substances.  Do we really interpret that as “You’re all cheaters until you prove you’re not”?  Anyone who has made the claims that Dwayne has should be prepared to hear people say, “Not that I’m doubting you or anything, but – prove it.” <br /><br />I have absolutely nothing against Dwayne.  I’ve traveled with him twice to Europe with the USIRT.  He is in fact a very nice guy.  But – so what?  Does the fact that someone is very supportive of others and their training, and always wishes everyone a Happy Birthday, somehow guarantee that all their claims must be true?  Would a con artist appear openly sleazy and fraudulent, or would they attempt to gain trust?  Little old ladies get swindled out of their social security checks and tell the police “But he seemed like such a <i>nice</i>  man…”  Hey, I’m not saying that being nice is necessarily a <i>bad</i>  thing; it just doesn’t verify anyone’s erg scores.<br /><br />Why do some people around here seem to react so violently to the idea that anyone involved with Indoor Rowing might actually cheat?  As if this little corner of the world were somehow immune from that basic human fault.  People cheat.  They cheat on their taxes, they cheat in school, they cheat on their spouses.  Cheating and lying occur in sports at all levels.  People lie about their golf games, about how much they can bench press, and about how many touchdowns they scored in high school.  Parents have lied about their kids’ ages to get them into easier divisions.  Runners have taken shortcuts during races.  Coaches have influenced judges.  Pitchers have doctored baseballs and batters have corked their bats.  Even disabled athletes have lied about the severity of their disabilities to be more competitive in a particular category!  And then there’s the whole issue of illegal drugs.  But cheaters aren’t represented in the Indoor Rowing community to the same degree as elsewhere?  Please!  And why do people cheat?  As often as not, because they can.  What could be simpler or less risky than typing a false score onto a web page? <br /><br />As for Dwayne, I can’t get past the fact that in four venue races, he has never broken 7:00.  Sick or injured once?  Can happen to anyone.  Twice?  Bad luck.  But <b>four times?</b>  And never an attempt to get in one healthy performance at Boston or some other venue?  Man, I just don’t know.  It would just take one solid confirmed row to establish a bit of credibility for any of the fantastic times he’s claimed for all the ranking distances.  The various inconsistencies with some of these claims have essentially been ignored.  Regarding the veracity of some of Dwayne’s reported 2K times, I see room for doubt in every single case.  That’s not claiming that Dwayne lied.  It’s just stating there is not sufficient proof to recognize the performance.  Although no one from Concept2 has made a statement on this thread, their position is clear.  They didn’t recognize Dwayne’s previous claim on the M40HW record.  Meanwhile, since C2’s statement about world records needing to be set at official events, they have recognized at least two new records that were set under similar circumstances and with fewer witnesses than Dwayne has claimed.  (The notion that Concept2 would deliberately isolate Dwayne and refuse to recognize a credible performance is more outrageous than the notion that Dwayne could possibly lie.) <br /><br />Some say, “What’s the big deal?  Even if someone does make a false claim, they’re only hurting themselves.”  I’m struggling with how anyone can embrace this sentiment and claim that the ranking lists have any value at all.  If there is value in seeing your name ranked among your peers, and if someone is falsely ranked, then clearly false rankings hurt everyone else on the list.  And if someone claims to be at the top of the list – so far at the top of the list as to be statistically improbable – then that claim bears scrutiny.  Dwayne competes (no – he <i>doesn’t</i>  compete) in what is the most competitive category in Indoor Rowing, IMHO.  Dwayne claims to be faster than Tom Bohrer, Andreas van Tonder, Jurgen Schwab, Antii Niskanen, Brian Burke, Mike Connors, John Dixon, Chris Ives, John Grady, Poul Bysted, Grant Biggar, and many others who have all proved their abilities in open competition – including of course Pertti Karpinnen.  Any of these people who read the C2 forums and see all the discussion about what a remarkable athlete Dwayne is have the right to say “Wait a minute – what has he ever actually <b>shown</b>  he can do?”  Heck, even Steve Hargis, who finished 41st at CRASH-B last year in the senior HW event with a time of 7:00.0 has the right to say that.  I don’t claim to know about any martial arts code, but my understanding of the Indoor Rowing code is you don’t make claims you can’t prove.  You owe it to your competitors.  And what about the possibility of somebody dispensing advice that others might follow, based on the premise that the person with the advice has actually done what they claim to have done?  I see the potential for harm there.<br /><br />Let me put it another way.  If Dwayne were a lightweight and claimed to have rowed 6:13 under similar circumstances (no completed races, no incontrovertible proof) and I came on the forum and saw him get the kind of adulation he does, I’d be pretty upset.  I don’t know how I’d express it, but I would definitely feel it.  Or I can give a more concrete example.  Last year I won the WIRC in the senior LW division.  If you look at the 2005 ranked 2Ks for 40-49 LW men, the fastest time listed is by Rob Ezold of Clinton, TN.  I’m second.  During the weeks prior to CRASH-B, I had noticed Rob had posted a time in the 6:20s and that he had registered for the race on RegattaCentral.  So I pegged him as one to watch.  Ultimately he didn’t attend the race, but two weeks later he posted a time faster than my gold medal time.  Now, I have absolutely no basis for doubting Rob’s time.  I don’t know anything about him, and I am not claiming he didn’t pull that score.  For all I know he was psyched to come to CRASH-Bs but something came up and he couldn’t attend but still wanted to leave some record of his hard work and preparation.  But it bugs me a little that someone might look at the ranking page and say, “Oh, this Ezold guy is the fastest senior lightweight in the world”, even though he didn’t prove it during the same trial by fire as me.  Just below my name on the ranking list is Kent Timm, who for the past few years has ranked scores for 500m, 1K, 6K and 60’ that are all faster than I could ever do.  He always ranks a 2K time just a little slower than me.  I’m not sure what’s up with that, but a cynical interpretation is that most people won’t have a frame of reference for the other distances but he’s afraid to make too fantastic a claim for a distance that features public competition.  To my knowledge, Timm has never raced at a venue.  Now, I don’t care too much about any of this because not too many people really pay that much attention to the rankings anyway.  But the point I am making is that if either Ezold or Timm came on the forum regularly to talk about their accomplishments and got the kind of response Dwayne does from his admirers, I’d be upset.  Call me childish or petty, but that’s the way it is. <br /><br />And BTW, I think my response is pretty typical of people that attend major races and finish in the medals.  We talk.  We talk about issues like this.  And I would also be willing to bet any amount of money you could not find anyone associated with Concept2 who would be willing to say they accept the claims Dwayne has made (2K, total meters, other distances, etc.) without question.<br /><br />Anybody who makes claims about fantastic performances should be prepared to back them up with solid proof.  I’ve laughed for years at people who’ve taken Rod Freed seriously.  Even Ranger, who has indisputably turned in world class performances in the past, needs to put up or shut up about what he can do now.  And Dwayne doesn’t have the benefit of a past race to pin his claims on.  If in the future Dwayne can provide solid proof of a fast time, then I’ll offer my congratulations along with everyone else.  But I don’t care if Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed all show up to certify the results, I won’t feel guilty for doubting him until now.  And regardless of what someone does in an isolated time trial, the only way to be recognized as the very best is to defeat all comers in open competition.  Dwayne needs to show up in Boston one of these years.<br /><br />Based on all the emotional responses to this topic so far, my opinions are clearly going to offend some people and maybe cost me some good will on the forum.  That’s unfortunate.  I didn’t ask for this issue to come along, but given that it did I had to say my piece.<br /><br />Mike Caviston <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I copied this quote in the hope that more peolpe will read this.Thanx Mike I cant add anything to this!!!!<br /><br />I saw Dwayne's 2k for this season has also gone of the rankings

[[old] Andreas]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 22 2006, 10:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 10:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-becz+Jan 22 2006, 11:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(becz @ Jan 22 2006, 11:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 22 2006, 09:55 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 22 2006, 09:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But, for someone to come here, and make accusations impuning another's integrity, with no <b>FACTUAL </b>basis, well, I feel you'd agree, that is reprehensible. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />You keep making statements like this, and I find it hard to get my head around it. The FACTS are that Dwayne has claimed to row TWO (no, wait, now THREE) sub 5:50 2k pieces, yet in FOUR tries in public has not come anywhere near those time even ONCE. THOSE ARE THE FACTS. As I said to someone else in a PM, when you then add in all the other weird FACTS (like giving away the PM3 provided to you so you can rank your erg times, getting back from business travel in Asia and banging out a 6:01 USIRT test piece, rowing (on average) 44,000 meters per day without a break), things get hard to swallow. Those are the FACTS that lead to the questioning. Please stop saying there were no FACTS to support what got this whole thing started.<br /><br />What do you think Dwayne would have said if Chad had sent him an email in private saying "Hey, Dwayne, top notch scores, dude. Did you really pull those times?" I'm sure the reply would have been something like "Yup, sure did! Keep at it man, just do your best, maybe someday you can pull those scores, too!" Sometime the only way to get to the truth is to throw all of the FACTS out there in public for everyone to see.<br /><br />I think part of the problem (and I'm being serious here) is that you haven't been in the sport of rowing for very long. I've been rowing on and off the water for almost 20 years now, and I think it's longer for Mike, plus he helps coach a nationally ranked crew, and well as being a world class athlete himself. Our bull-sh*t meters are set pretty high at this point as far as the rowing world goes. You come to have a pretty good idea about what the facts are, and I'll say it again, either the circumstances surrounding the differences between publicly demonstrated ability and posted times are astronomically unusual, or something is not right. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Sandor:<br /><br />Thanks for the message.<br /><br />I had a boss once, his boss was giving him a hard time ... and his boss was a moron. He kept telling my boss about how much experience he had ... etc. etc. My boss had a great response. His question was simply this, "We're you ever really any good at it?" <br /><br />I respect accomplishment like Mike's. But, for someone like you to just say, I have more years here than you, is, in my mind, baloney. You have no idea what I know about rowing, or how I participated in the sport before I started ERGING, or got here, now do you? If you do, please share it with me. Tell me how many times I've been to Henley ... Schoolboys ... who I know in the sport ... how many Olympians I've spent time with and questioned on technique. Go ahead and do it in public, right here. I'm no moron Sandor ... and I take issue with your insinuation that I just fell off the turnip truck last evening.<br /><br />Your response is that of someone who's run out of logic, so now you'll impune my knowledge or whatever.<br /><br />I really don't give a hoot if your s-meter is set high. Chad accused someone of being a cheat, with no FACTUAL evidence. That's a FACT. No emotion, no feelings, no baloney. He's proven himself to be a cad, a liar, a deceiver, and a coward. That's a fact.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Regards -- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mark<br />Please go and get same sleep!!!!!!