Dwyane Adams - Fake Or Real?

[[old] Chad Williams]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 21 2006, 08:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 08:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because of this, this posting is likely to be a king-size waste of time. [right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So why to you keep coming on here and stirring it all up again.<br /><br />You keep saying I called someone a liar and a cheat, well show me where I have said "Dwayne you are a liar and a cheat" I keep looking but can't find it anywhere.<br /><br />I tell you why I can't find it, it is because you keep twisting what I say, "Show me proof" to you means "you are a cheat and a liar" You are getting the two confused. Step back and take what I have said in the context it has been meant, not what you want it to mean.<br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] TomR/the elder]

Hey Chad--<br /><br />Let me quote you: "I said I would not post again until Dwayne had done his 2000m this weekend. . . "<br /><br />Your work is done. Take the heat. Let the results speak.<br /><br />Tom

[[old] Chad Williams]

<!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jan 21 2006, 09:46 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jan 21 2006, 09:46 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->  <br />but who was an easy target on an internet forum. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />He has made himself that target by ranking the top times that he can not prove he has rowed. You still have not shown <b>ANY</b>......<span style='color:red'>read it</span>.......<b>ANY PROOF </b>of Dwayne rowing under 7.00.0 for a 2000m.<br /><br />That is the whole point of this whole issue!!! not "is he a liar or a cheat", but CAN HE PROVE WHAT HE CLAIMS!! it is so easy, why complicate the issue. This could have been over on page one if someone said to me "Here you go Chad, C2 varification code and a signed witness statement from someone who saw Dwayne row the whole distance". <br /><br />That is the whole issue and the only issue I have had.<br /><br />Dwayne is not a liar or a cheat. He is someone that claims world class times without proof!!!<br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Jan 21 2006, 10:50 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Jan 21 2006, 10:50 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mark--<br /><br />I think this dispute is about facts, not feelings. There are of course lots of strong feelings thrown in, because it is such a contentious, serious, and personal dispute. And because Chad has been undiplomatic. <br /><br />The evidence regarding Dwayne's performances is not perfectly clear, alas. Follow the thread and you will see discrepancies that have been pointed out, problems w/ verification that remain. (I tracked down one witness, and his reply to me appears to confirm Dwayne's score, but ambiguity remains.) It is this murky evidence--uncertainty regarding facts--that is at question.<br /><br />Dwayne sits atop many of the sports' leaderboards. His achievements are remarkable, and he has been warm and supportive to many on this Forum. We all like him and want to believe. Ours is a unique sport, however, in that one can achieve the top-ranking position in our class w/out ever performing successfully in public.<br /><br />Chad is not the sole doubter, only the most vociferous and determined. (I have even wondered a time or two whether "Chad" is a single individual.) He (and others) argue that Dwayne owes it to other top-ranking ergers,--to the sport, if you will--to demonstrate what he can do. Dwayne, encourged by Graham Benton, has graciously agreed. Soon, some facts will no longer be in dispute--we can hope.<br /><br />The residue of bad feelings may remain for a long time, but I have come to see this extended exchange as an effort to determine what the facts are in a particular case, but perhaps more essentially, what the performance requirements will be for a elite performer in general. It's a sort of a tribal reckoning.<br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Tom:<br /><br />I'm really not trying to be an ass here, but please go back and re-read my postings because you've entirely missed, I feel from this post of yours, the salient point. It might appear to be very subte to you, but I'm sure it's a whack over the head for Dwayne.<br /><br />I know there are people who doubt Dwayne's times. <b>So what?</b> People doubt performance every day. <b>Who cares?</b><br /><br />The issue here is that someone has taken <b>doubt</b>, or <b>feeling</b>, and has turned it into a reason for accusations of cheating and personal attack. Are there discrepencies in the history surrounding Dwyne's times? Well, that's once again open for interpretation and subjectivity ... let's say <b>feeling </b>or <b>doubt</b>. The ruling body here doesn't think so ... that's really the only relavent fact here surrounding Dwayne's times. Are feelings or doubt viable reasons for accusing someone of lying or being a cheater? Gosh, I sure hope not.<br /><br />Let's look at it from another perspective. I'm no lawyer, but in many legal systems, Dwayne would have cause for action against Chad -- could actually sue him and recover damages -- if Chad could not <b>prove </b>that Dwayne's times were truly contrived ... and there's no way he can do that. Why? Because baseless accusations like his have a negative financial impact on Dwayne's ability to earn an income and lead a life of liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... rights granted to you and I at the most basic level of our government and society.<br /><br />I don't see many facts being stated here, or being agreed to when they're stated. C2 is the governing body here -- that's an irrefutable fact. They've accepted Dwayne's times -- another irrefutable fact. Dwayne pulled a great time that was witnessed by acceptable witnesses -- that's another irrefutable fact.<br /><br />I haven't seen many more facts here, just feeling or doubts or stories that people have rationalized into "facts". And many of them are people whose times are not what Dwayne's are, so they have a vested interest in attacking him or seeing him foiled, which is an embarassment to our sport ... and to them. Please factor this into your analysis.<br /><br />On one hand, I hope Dwayne pulls the living s&%# out of that erg today or tomorrow and sticks this whole string of accusations up the a$$es of those who are Dwayne-haters. On the other hand, I think it's a sorry bunch of human beings who have pushed him to do this and I'm sorry he's doing it. It's pretty un-Christian of me, but I hope he continues to improve his fitness and performance while they struggle to perform due to their small-mindedness. I'd like to believe the good guys always win ... sooner or later. I've seen some things here that are incredible ... but not uncommon. More people than Chad should be taking a look at themselves in the mirror and not liking what they see ... but they won't ... they'll keep rationalizing like they have in the past.<br /><br />And, BTW, I don't know Dwayne, I've never met Dwayne, I've never e-mailed or PM-ed with Dwayne. I think I've likely congratulated him on the forum when he's done something impressive, as I'm sure he has with me. I stand up for him like I'd stand up for any of you if you were similarly smeared. <br /><br />I forget who said it, but there's the old expression that goes something like, "All evil needs to triumph is for good men to stand aside and do nothing." World history has plenty of examples to show where lack of courage to stand up for what's right, regardless of the impact on one's own well-being, has resulted in devastating consequences for millions of humans beings. Many may feel this is just a very small, inconsequential matter. It's not, and that's the problem.<br /><br />I don't particularly care if there's anyone out there who feels I'm being "judgemental" or "lecturing". Accusations of this seem to be what weak people do to argue their baseless points and disparge even more people who try to do right. Let's face it, every human being has an innate ability to sense right, wrong, and reality. Facing up to it and dealing with it like a mature adult, is where the breakdown occurs. It's easier to take shortcuts then to take the path required and do the right thing. It really is a very <b>simple </b>thing to do, yet not <b>easy</b>. Here, Chad's taken the easy path ... and he should be ashamed, and everyone here should be telling him so. Those that don't should be ashamed of themselves as well.<br /><br />I've had someone bust on me here for living in a very "black and white world" ... another one of those arguments put forward by the weak rationalists. This is a black and white matter.<br /><br />Regards -- Mark

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 21 2006, 10:52 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 21 2006, 10:52 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 21 2006, 08:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 08:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because of this, this posting is likely to be a king-size waste of time. [right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So why to you keep coming on here and stirring it all up again.<br /><br />You keep saying I called someone a liar and a cheat, well show me where I have said "Dwayne you are a liar and a cheat" I keep looking but can't find it anywhere.<br /><br />I tell you why I can't find it, it is because you keep twisting what I say, "Show me proof" to you means "you are a cheat and a liar" You are getting the two confused. Step back and take what I have said in the context it has been meant, not what you want it to mean. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Chad:<br /><br />Yes you did. You did it through insinuation and innuendo ... that's clear. Perhaps a concept you don't understand, but valid nonetheless. Let my new poll, validated and adjusted based on those that are willing to come forward and identify with their vote, make the call. Perception is reality, no matter how much you wish to hope otherwise. You let the gennie out of the bottle, please take responsibilty for your actions rather than trying in vain to find a way to stuff it back in.<br /><br />-- Mark

[[old] hjs]

Let's look at it from another perspective. I'm no lawyer, but in many legal systems, Dwayne would have cause for action against Chad -- could actually sue him and recover damages -- if Chad could not prove that Dwayne's times were truly contrived ... and there's no way he can do that. Why? Because baseless accusations like his have a negative financial impact on Dwayne's ability to earn an income and lead a life of liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... rights granted to you and I at the most basic level of our government and society.<br /><br /><br />pffffffffffffffffffffffffffff Only an American can Type this. No other land in the world would let you suy someone for this.

[[old] Chad Williams]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 21 2006, 10:28 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 10:28 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I know there are people who doubt Dwayne's times.  <b>So what?</b>  People doubt performance every day.  <b>Who cares?</b>[right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />What a silly question Mark, I care for one!!<br /><br />

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Jan 21 2006, 11:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Jan 21 2006, 11:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's look at it from another perspective. I'm no lawyer, but in many legal systems, Dwayne would have cause for action against Chad -- could actually sue him and recover damages -- if Chad could not prove that Dwayne's times were truly contrived ... and there's no way he can do that. Why? Because baseless accusations like his have a negative financial impact on Dwayne's ability to earn an income and lead a life of liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... rights granted to you and I at the most basic level of our government and society.<br /><br /><br />pffffffffffffffffffffffffffff  Only an American can Type this. No other land in the world would let you suy someone for this. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh yeah? You're completely uninformed about your own legal system. It's called slander or libel and it's a part of most legal systems around the world. When you'd like, you can apologize for cracking on me because I'm American. That was completely uncalled for.

[[old] TomR/the elder]

Mark--<br /><br />I understood your point.<br /><br />For a conviction our legal system requires jurors be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. That's not a feeling. Such doubt would be a rational state, uncertainty because the evidence is inconclusive. Happy to have a lawyer correct me here.<br /><br />Regarding libel, I think the case would hinge on the facts. As I said, those appear in doubt. Insofar as I know, C2 has not stepped up to say, Hey guys, chill, we've got the evidence. To the contrary.<br /><br />So Dwayne will row. This is a good thing. Like compost, something beneficial from a pile of shit. Rather like most of this thread.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Tom

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 21 2006, 04:46 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 04:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Jan 21 2006, 11:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Jan 21 2006, 11:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's look at it from another perspective. I'm no lawyer, but in many legal systems, Dwayne would have cause for action against Chad -- could actually sue him and recover damages -- if Chad could not prove that Dwayne's times were truly contrived ... and there's no way he can do that. Why? Because baseless accusations like his have a negative financial impact on Dwayne's ability to earn an income and lead a life of liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... rights granted to you and I at the most basic level of our government and society.<br /><br /><br />pffffffffffffffffffffffffffff  Only an American can Type this. No other land in the world would let you suy someone for this. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh yeah? You're completely uninformed about your own legal system. It's called slander or libel and it's a part of most legal systems around the world. When you'd like, you can apologize for cracking on me because I'm American. That was completely uncalled for. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No Mark, I am sorry but I will not. If I would enter times in the rankings and you would ask me. He hjs that's all nice and well but In which races did you do that. Show to me you can. That's no reason to go to court. <br />You are making it way bigger than it is.<br /><br /><br />Ps It's not my intension to insult you, but in general I am not a fan off the legael systeem in the Us. And I think I am intitelt to say so. I do live in country were you can say what you think. (although it is changing do to influences out off the Us )

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Jan 21 2006, 11:49 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Jan 21 2006, 11:49 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mark--<br /><br />I understood your point.<br /><br />For a conviction our legal system requires jurors be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt. That's not a feeling. Such doubt would be a rational state, uncertainty because the evidence is inconclusive. Happy to have a lawyer correct me here.<br /><br />Regarding libel, I think the case would hinge on the facts. As I said, those appear in doubt. Insofar as I know, C2 has not stepped up to say, Hey guys, chill, we've got the evidence. To the contrary.<br /><br />So Dwayne will row. This is a good thing. Like compost, something beneficial from a pile of shit. Rather like most of this thread.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Tom:<br /><br />Facts can't be "in doubt", can they? They can only be doubted. Facts in doubt, real doubt, wouldn't be facts. A fact is a fact. A feeling or an innuendo is just that, not a fact.<br /><br />I believe that Chad's accusations would need to be proven true for him to be found innocent of libel or slander ... I believe most slander and libel laws side more with the plaintiff, and require proof of the accusation by the defendant, but I'm no lawyer.<br /><br />-- Mark

[[old] Chad Williams]

Mark, with respect, not everyone wears the same rose tinted spectacles that you seem to have. Life is about survival of the fittest, its dog eat dog in the real world. Unfortunately this is the world we live in. <br />I was not born this aggressive; society and the surroundings I have been put in have had a huge bearing in making me this way.<br />The world is not full of lovely honest and true people like in the picture you like to paint, there are some rotten apples in every barrel (not saying Dwayne is a rotten apple before you start on me for that)<br /><br />If someone is making a claim that directly affects me, I want to see proof of that claim. Its in my DNA.<br /><br />

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Jan 21 2006, 11:56 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Jan 21 2006, 11:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 21 2006, 04:46 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 21 2006, 04:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Jan 21 2006, 11:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Jan 21 2006, 11:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's look at it from another perspective. I'm no lawyer, but in many legal systems, Dwayne would have cause for action against Chad -- could actually sue him and recover damages -- if Chad could not prove that Dwayne's times were truly contrived ... and there's no way he can do that. Why? Because baseless accusations like his have a negative financial impact on Dwayne's ability to earn an income and lead a life of liberty and the pursuit of happiness ... rights granted to you and I at the most basic level of our government and society.<br /><br /><br />pffffffffffffffffffffffffffff  Only an American can Type this. No other land in the world would let you suy someone for this. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh yeah? You're completely uninformed about your own legal system. It's called slander or libel and it's a part of most legal systems around the world. When you'd like, you can apologize for cracking on me because I'm American. That was completely uncalled for. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No Mark, I am sorry but I will not. If I would enter times in the rankings and you would ask me. He hjs that's all nice and well but In which races did you do that. Show to me you can. That's no reason to go to court. <br />You are making it way bigger than it is. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Actually, hjs, you're wrong, I wouldn't say or even think that. What I'd think is, "Wow, that's great. I should PM hjs and see if he'd be willing to share any of his training techniques with me to help me do better." People have a tendency to project onto others how thay would act in a similar situation. Please don't project how you'd act onto me.<br /><br />Do a Google search on "defamation laws worldwide" and do some reading. Many (maybe most?) countries in the world have just as harsh, or <b>HARSHER </b>defamation laws than the US (including yours!). Why? Because it's not something that I'm making "way bigger than it is". It's an important foundational element of a free, fair, open, level-playing-field society.<br /><br />I'll still ask for an apology for your American wisecrack. I'll repeat that it was uncalled for.

[[old] PaulS]

Come on guys! OJ is still "in search of his ex-wifes killer(s)" because of 'reasonable doubt' and the US legal system. Apparently the majority of his investigation is taking place at golf courses all over the country because of the suspects "wicked slice". bah-bah-boom! <br /><br />All that Chad seems to really care about is that Dwayne produce an indisputable public exhibition of a 2k under 7:00, as that has been the only "proof" he has offered to support his "doubting Chad" position.<br /><br />BTW - PM's to me, supporting Chad so far = 0 (but it's only been a day since the request was made.)

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 21 2006, 12:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 21 2006, 12:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mark, with respect, not everyone wears the same rose tinted spectacles that you seem to have. Life is about survival of the fittest, its dog eat dog in the real world. Unfortunately this is the world we live in. <br />I was not born this aggressive; society and the surroundings I have been put in have had a huge bearing in making me this way.<br />The world is not full of lovely honest and true people like in the picture you like to paint, there are some rotten apples in every barrel (not saying Dwayne is a rotten apple before you start on me for that)<br /><br />If someone is making a claim that directly affects me, I want to see proof of that claim. Its in my DNA. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Chad:<br /><br />Actually, I believe I've proven through my writings that the last thing I have on is rose coloured glasses. If you knew me, which you don't, you'd also realize that I understand "dog eat dog" and how, when left to run amuck with "dog eat dog", a society would devolve into unfairness, bigotry, discrimination, harassment, dictatorship, repression, and the like. That's why we have rules and laws to set boundaries for behaviour.<br /><br />Dwayne's played by the rules of the game ... you don't like thise rules. So, you challenged the player, rather than the game. Now, you're too stubborn to admit it.<br /><br />You've also proved one of my points. You've just used "society and the surroundings I have been put in have had a huge bearing in making me this way". No, you <b>CHOOSE </b>to be the way you are. You have the free will to make decisions about how you feel, and how you act, that are innate in every human being. To better understand this, try reading "Man's Search for Meaning" by Victor Frankl. Every library worldwide will have it in circulation. If not, send me a PM with your address and I'll send you a copy ... really.<br /><br />Sure there are rotten apples in every barrel. You've accused Dwayne of being one with no reason.<br /><br />This is what I really don't understand ... even if it were true ... how do Dwayne's rankings and time impact you?<br /><br />Regards -- Mark