Dwyane Adams - Fake Or Real?

[[old] Drago]

<!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 20 2006, 02:38 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 20 2006, 02:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tell ya what I'm gonna do fur ya Graham. I'll erg a 2k piece this weekend. On a Model D, with the new firmware. I'll get the code from the machine and enter the piece in the rankings. I'll also take a screen shot of the piece (or have one of the people at the boathouse do it while I'm rowing) and down load it for you to take a look at. Sound like a plan?<br /><br />Dwayne <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />This is very good news.<br /><br />All the very best for the row Dwayne.

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Jan 20 2006, 11:42 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Jan 20 2006, 11:42 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your computers are being monitored. Your employers will be notified that you were engaging in a personal obsession during business hours. Expect you pay to be docked.<br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br />That's why it's great to be the boss!!!<br /><br />

[[old] grams]

Are you guys kidding? I thought this was a clean family-orientd sport. What happened to this thread? Lets all step back into the adult world, shall we?<br /><br />grams

[[old] hennmart]

<span style='color:blue'>Dwayne good luck with your 2k. this weekend!</span><br /><br />Hennie

[[old] kinley]

**********Disclaimer*********<br /><br />1. I am embarrassed to be reading this thread.<br />2. I am embarrassed to be responding to this thread.<br />3. I am absolutely mortified to be reading and responding to this thread under my own name.<br /><br />****************************<br /><br />CHAD: You didn't set up a poll "Self Reported Times - True or False." <br />You set up a poll "Dwyane Adams - Fake or Real."<br /><br />See a difference?<br /><br />You would do well to study and learn from the posts of Porkchop and Slo Boat.

[[old] becz]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sandor:<br /><br />My perturbance has nothing to do with Chad respecting Dwayne's times or not.  I couldn't care less what he "feels", but he has a right to "feel" it nonetheless.  He can "feel" any way he wants to "feel" about this.  However, he called Dwayne a liar and a cheat by the way he started this ... and he's trying to wiggle out of it like a little fishworm.  Any <b>reasonable </b>human being would agree with that.  <br /><br />He claims he wanted to question the "system", but then got into excruciating detail on Dwayne's times, and races, and results, etc.  He then offended, in any reasonable person's eyes, those who called him a cad for doing so.  Then, people who normally act responsibly here started rationalizing Chad's boorish behaviour as being "OK" because there are others that also "feel" Dwayne's times are bogus.  They're just as bad as Chad is, if not worse.  <br /><br />One of the major cause of problems in the world today is many people have no principles, no moral grounding, no sense of fair play, no sense of right and wrong ... and even fewer people will call them on it when they act inappropriately because of same.  I'm tired of hearing people rationalize bad behaviour.  Chad's acted inappropriately here and continues to dig even though he's in a hole.  That's the REAL issue here.<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br />First of all...don't lecture me. I don't need your moral guidance. You know nothing about me other than my name, I know the same about you. There's another thread that's been started where you can discuss the "REAL" issue as you put it, but unfortunately the issue here is something else, like it or not.<br /><br />I'm curious, in your black and white world of right and wrong, what would you say if it was found that the times in question are not real? Will it be OK with you, since Dwyane is "supportive, nice, etc. etc.", as you said? You've spent a lot of time telling us all how Chad has behaved badly, but assuming just for a moment that Dwayne's times, or anyone else's times who is a "nice guy" on the forum, are not ALL true times, is it OK? Would you dispense the same kind of tongue lashing for behavior that, in my opinion, is just as bad?<br />

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-becz+Jan 20 2006, 11:27 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(becz @ Jan 20 2006, 11:27 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 20 2006, 09:49 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 20 2006, 09:49 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 20 2006, 10:43 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 20 2006, 10:43 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 20 2006, 09:29 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 20 2006, 09:29 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You not only insult me, <br />Dwayne <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Was it me that called you any of the follow-<br />An A**<br />Some big mouth<br />S**t stain<br /><br />What did I call you apart from a proof less erger? which is true, so I am not even a lier either. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><b>YOU CALLED HIM A CHEAT AND A LIAR ... DON'T YOU GET IT?</b> <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Mark,<br /><br />I understand you're angry with Chad, but he's obviously not alone in his questioning. Even Graham has politely said he'd really like to see a public row. At this point neither you nor Chad are adding anything constructive. All we can agree on is:<br /><br />You and many others have no respect for Chad.<br />Chad and many others don't respect Dwayne's times.<br />Dwayne has offered to help end this whole thing. I respect him for that (there's that word again).<br /><br />Let's all go outside and have a beer. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Tune in on Monday. Can't a mod lock this down until then?<br /><br />By the way, note my edits above. Can you guys please cut that out?<br /><br />Cheers,<br />Sandor Becz (I do exist). <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Sandor:<br /><br />My perturbance has nothing to do with Chad respecting Dwayne's times or not. I couldn't care less what he "feels", but he has a right to "feel" it nonetheless. He can "feel" any way he wants to "feel" about this. However, he called Dwayne a liar and a cheat by the way he started this ... and he's trying to wiggle out of it like a little fishworm. Any <b>reasonable </b>human being would agree with that. <br /><br />He claims he wanted to question the "system", but then got into excruciating detail on Dwayne's times, and races, and results, etc. He then offended, in any reasonable person's eyes, those who called him a cad for doing so. Then, people who normally act responsibly here started rationalizing Chad's boorish behaviour as being "OK" because there are others that also "feel" Dwayne's times are bogus. They're just as bad as Chad is, if not worse. <br /><br />One of the major cause of problems in the world today is many people have no principles, no moral grounding, no sense of fair play, no sense of right and wrong ... and even fewer people will call them on it when they act inappropriately because of same. I'm tired of hearing people rationalize bad behaviour. Chad's acted inappropriately here and continues to dig even though he's in a hole. That's the REAL issue here.<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Mark,<br /><br />Well said.<br /><br />"It's five o'clock somewhere" -- have a PBR.

[[old] Graham Benton]

<!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 20 2006, 08:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 20 2006, 08:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Graham Benton+Jan 20 2006, 08:00 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Graham Benton @ Jan 20 2006, 08:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Dwayne, would it be possible to take a screen shot of some of your workouts. Yes, it would shut people like Chad up but mostly people just like seeing things like that. We are impressed by what some people are capable of and want memories of such achievements ... "Dwayne Adams pulled a 2:40 1k ... I've seen the screen, awesome!!". I frequently talk to people I row with about ergo times ... there was a rumour going round that Pavel had pulled some ludicrous 5:20 time. I heard it from a lot of people. I quickly set them straight but took great delight in saying that I had personally seen him almost tear the machine apart on the way to a 5:39. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Tell ya what I'm gonna do fur ya Graham. I'll erg a 2k piece this weekend. On a Model D, with the new firmware. I'll get the code from the machine and enter the piece in the rankings. I'll also take a screen shot of the piece (or have one of the people at the boathouse do it while I'm rowing) and down load it for you to take a look at. Sound like a plan?<br /><br />Dwayne <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Dwayne - I think that this would be a really positive step and I respect you for doing an unscheduled 2k to put this to bed. This is really exciting news and I look forward to seeing the outcome. Best of luck!

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-becz+Jan 20 2006, 02:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(becz @ Jan 20 2006, 02:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sandor:<br /><br />My perturbance has nothing to do with Chad respecting Dwayne's times or not.  I couldn't care less what he "feels", but he has a right to "feel" it nonetheless.  He can "feel" any way he wants to "feel" about this.  However, he called Dwayne a liar and a cheat by the way he started this ... and he's trying to wiggle out of it like a little fishworm.  Any <b>reasonable </b>human being would agree with that.  <br /><br />He claims he wanted to question the "system", but then got into excruciating detail on Dwayne's times, and races, and results, etc.  He then offended, in any reasonable person's eyes, those who called him a cad for doing so.  Then, people who normally act responsibly here started rationalizing Chad's boorish behaviour as being "OK" because there are others that also "feel" Dwayne's times are bogus.  They're just as bad as Chad is, if not worse.  <br /><br />One of the major cause of problems in the world today is many people have no principles, no moral grounding, no sense of fair play, no sense of right and wrong ... and even fewer people will call them on it when they act inappropriately because of same.  I'm tired of hearing people rationalize bad behaviour.  Chad's acted inappropriately here and continues to dig even though he's in a hole.  That's the REAL issue here.<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br />First of all...don't lecture me. I don't need your moral guidance. You know nothing about me other than my name, I know the same about you. There's another thread that's been started where you can discuss the "REAL" issue as you put it, but unfortunately the issue here is something else, like it or not.<br /><br />I'm curious, in your black and white world of right and wrong, what would you say if it was found that the times in question are not real? Will it be OK with you, since Dwyane is "supportive, nice, etc. etc.", as you said? You've spent a lot of time telling us all how Chad has behaved badly, but assuming just for a moment that Dwayne's times, or anyone else's times who is a "nice guy" on the forum, are not ALL true times, is it OK? Would you dispense the same kind of tongue lashing for behavior that, in my opinion, is just as bad? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Sandor:<br /><br />Excuse me, but I wasn't lecturing you, I was speaking my mind on this matter after you commented on my post. This is the way I FEEL. Please don't tell me how to FEEL about this matter. Everyone knows the way things work here, and if they don't like it, should lobby for change, deal with things as they are, or go away, not personally attack anyone. That would be what civilized people do. I have every right to share my feelings on this thread, as do you.<br /><br />Your question to me is irrelavant. How can anyone ever PROVE that times Dwayne posted are "true"? It's from the past. Unless Dwayne says he cheated, which it appears he's not going to do, even if he never breaks 8:00 again, it's still his word, and, oh yeah, and the word of a number of witnesses, against those that question him here.<br /><br />It still amazes me (just my FEELING by the way) how many will rationalize that their <b>feeling </b>that Dwayne's times are lies is support enough for personal attacks and accusations of cheating ... having any facts to back up the accusations be damned. That would be "guilty until proven innocent" ... not the way things work in a fair-minded society.<br /><br />-- Mark

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jan 20 2006, 02:15 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jan 20 2006, 02:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-becz+Jan 20 2006, 11:27 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(becz @ Jan 20 2006, 11:27 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 20 2006, 09:49 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 20 2006, 09:49 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 20 2006, 10:43 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 20 2006, 10:43 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 20 2006, 09:29 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 20 2006, 09:29 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You not only insult me, <br />Dwayne <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Was it me that called you any of the follow-<br />An A**<br />Some big mouth<br />S**t stain<br /><br />What did I call you apart from a proof less erger? which is true, so I am not even a lier either. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><b>YOU CALLED HIM A CHEAT AND A LIAR ... DON'T YOU GET IT?</b> <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Mark,<br /><br />I understand you're angry with Chad, but he's obviously not alone in his questioning. Even Graham has politely said he'd really like to see a public row. At this point neither you nor Chad are adding anything constructive. All we can agree on is:<br /><br />You and many others have no respect for Chad.<br />Chad and many others don't respect Dwayne's times.<br />Dwayne has offered to help end this whole thing. I respect him for that (there's that word again).<br /><br />Let's all go outside and have a beer. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. Tune in on Monday. Can't a mod lock this down until then?<br /><br />By the way, note my edits above. Can you guys please cut that out?<br /><br />Cheers,<br />Sandor Becz (I do exist). <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Sandor:<br /><br />My perturbance has nothing to do with Chad respecting Dwayne's times or not. I couldn't care less what he "feels", but he has a right to "feel" it nonetheless. He can "feel" any way he wants to "feel" about this. However, he called Dwayne a liar and a cheat by the way he started this ... and he's trying to wiggle out of it like a little fishworm. Any <b>reasonable </b>human being would agree with that. <br /><br />He claims he wanted to question the "system", but then got into excruciating detail on Dwayne's times, and races, and results, etc. He then offended, in any reasonable person's eyes, those who called him a cad for doing so. Then, people who normally act responsibly here started rationalizing Chad's boorish behaviour as being "OK" because there are others that also "feel" Dwayne's times are bogus. They're just as bad as Chad is, if not worse. <br /><br />One of the major cause of problems in the world today is many people have no principles, no moral grounding, no sense of fair play, no sense of right and wrong ... and even fewer people will call them on it when they act inappropriately because of same. I'm tired of hearing people rationalize bad behaviour. Chad's acted inappropriately here and continues to dig even though he's in a hole. That's the REAL issue here.<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Mark,<br /><br />Well said.<br /><br />"It's five o'clock somewhere" -- have a PBR. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Chop:<br /><br />I'm on my way back from business in Detroit with too much time on my hands (hmmm ... reminds me of a song) ... thus the mental exercise here. Then it's row, shower, drive to hockey game with lovely daughter, and Labatt's Blue ... no PBR at Nationwide Arena!<br /><br /> <br /><br />-- Mark<br />

[[old] Graham Benton]

<!--QuoteBegin-Dickie+Jan 20 2006, 09:05 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dickie @ Jan 20 2006, 09:05 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Graham Benton+Jan 20 2006, 08:43 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Graham Benton @ Jan 20 2006, 08:43 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Jan 20 2006, 07:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Jan 20 2006, 07:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Daren C+Jan 20 2006, 01:13 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Daren C @ Jan 20 2006, 01:13 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 20 2006, 12:05 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 20 2006, 12:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is me that is trying to get YOU lot to prove me wrong and you still have not done it. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I ask <i>you</i> to prove that Dwayne is a liar and a cheat. Prove, mind, not just claim. Rather than us proving you're wrong, why don't you prove you're right? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />That is turning the world upside down. Sportsachievements are only valid if you prove them . Not the onther way around. <br />Anybody can claim anything and the rest of world has to proof that they didn,t?<br /><br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have to say that i do agree with this. I don't necessarily agree with the tone and methods of Chad but Dwayne has made the claims about his times and Chad is saying prove it. It should be much easier to prove that something did happen rather than it didn't. <br /><br />On a general level, an honour system is the most practical way of handling the rankings and things like that but anyone posting a time should be prepared to offer proof if challenged. And people are more likely to feel the need to challenge the top times so the higher up the ranking your time is then the more prepared you should be for people to challenge them. If the time cannot be proved then it should be withdrawn - we're not saying that the person lied, just that it can't be proved. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Graham<br /><br />I find this last paragraph a little odd, Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you state in another post, possibly on another thread, that you could not prove your 1:14.9 500m result. Are you prepared to withdraw it now because you can not prove it.<br /><br />Don't take this post wrong, I believe your time and I think it would be a shame if you withdrew it. I will never be at your level and could never challenge but I very much like something to shoot for.<br /><br />For me the challenge is to be better than the next 2 or 3 people who are higher on the ranking than me and when I achieve that then the next 2 or 3. Sometimes my goal is to be in the top 10%. I have never thought that any of the people ahead of me must be cheating to keep me away from my goal. I must lack the competitive spirit that you and others possess.<br /><br />I do not doubt Dwayne's times or yours, proof or not, I do not doubt Chads ability to be significantly below 6:30, his posts notwithstanding. It would be great to say 'there is this monster erger out in Arizona who pulled 5:47, I saw the proof' and maybe someday I will. I think we all need to settle down here, the season has just started here in the states, maybe we will see Dwayne perform at some upcoming event. And before the chorus starts with 'why doesn't he announce whether he will race or not', if you had as many public failures would you pre announce? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Dickie, if a level of proof was required that I could not provide then I would expect to have my time withdrawn. I've done 1:14.8 twice - I've got a screen shot of the first time somewhere and the second time was my 500m leg (I rowed the first leg) of a 4 x 500m relay and this was seen by Matt and Mark Mitchell and Rob Smith. I know my times are legitimate. I doubt that either of these would suffice as proof if a tighter system existed though and that is fair enough. When I rowed the pieces I was just trying to go as fast as I could - which I succeeded in doing. I wasn't trying to get number 1 on the board or pull a world record so I wouldn't have lost anything. I know and I am quick and other people know I am quick so a 1:14.8 listed against me on the web is of little significance ... unless it was an 'official' record which I would value immensely. In fact, I very rarely rank any of my times - the only times of mine that appear on the rankings are normally race results.

[[old] becz]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 20 2006, 01:32 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 20 2006, 01:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-becz+Jan 20 2006, 02:06 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(becz @ Jan 20 2006, 02:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 20 2006, 12:16 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Sandor:<br /><br />My perturbance has nothing to do with Chad respecting Dwayne's times or not.  I couldn't care less what he "feels", but he has a right to "feel" it nonetheless.  He can "feel" any way he wants to "feel" about this.  However, he called Dwayne a liar and a cheat by the way he started this ... and he's trying to wiggle out of it like a little fishworm.  Any <b>reasonable </b>human being would agree with that.  <br /><br />He claims he wanted to question the "system", but then got into excruciating detail on Dwayne's times, and races, and results, etc.  He then offended, in any reasonable person's eyes, those who called him a cad for doing so.  Then, people who normally act responsibly here started rationalizing Chad's boorish behaviour as being "OK" because there are others that also "feel" Dwayne's times are bogus.  They're just as bad as Chad is, if not worse.  <br /><br />One of the major cause of problems in the world today is many people have no principles, no moral grounding, no sense of fair play, no sense of right and wrong ... and even fewer people will call them on it when they act inappropriately because of same.  I'm tired of hearing people rationalize bad behaviour.  Chad's acted inappropriately here and continues to dig even though he's in a hole.  That's the REAL issue here.<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br />First of all...don't lecture me. I don't need your moral guidance. You know nothing about me other than my name, I know the same about you. There's another thread that's been started where you can discuss the "REAL" issue as you put it, but unfortunately the issue here is something else, like it or not.<br /><br />I'm curious, in your black and white world of right and wrong, what would you say if it was found that the times in question are not real? Will it be OK with you, since Dwyane is "supportive, nice, etc. etc.", as you said? You've spent a lot of time telling us all how Chad has behaved badly, but assuming just for a moment that Dwayne's times, or anyone else's times who is a "nice guy" on the forum, are not ALL true times, is it OK? Would you dispense the same kind of tongue lashing for behavior that, in my opinion, is just as bad? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Sandor:<br /><br />Excuse me, but I wasn't lecturing you, I was speaking my mind on this matter after you commented on my post. This is the way I FEEL. Please don't tell me how to FEEL about this matter. Everyone knows the way things work here, and if they don't like it, should lobby for change, deal with things as they are, or go away, not personally attack anyone. That would be what civilized people do. I have every right to share my feelings on this thread, as do you.<br /><br />Your question to me is irrelavant. How can anyone ever PROVE that times Dwayne posted are "true"? It's from the past. Unless Dwayne says he cheated, which it appears he's not going to do, even if he never breaks 8:00 again, it's still his word, and, oh yeah, and the word of a number of witnesses, against those that question him here.<br /><br />It still amazes me (just my FEELING by the way) how many will rationalize that their <b>feeling </b>that Dwayne's times are lies is support enough for personal attacks and accusations of cheating ... having any facts to back up the accusations facts be damned. That would be "guilty until proven innocent" ... not the way things work in a fair-minded society.<br /><br />-- Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Fair enough. I certainly agree with your last paragraph. Let me be one to point out that those of us on this thread who have said they had also [wondered, doubted, speculated about, disbelieved] Dwayne's times, only one of us (Chad) started this. Most of the others wouldn't have...maybe wanted to...but wouldn't have. I don't think admitting that we've FELT the same as the original post amounts to a personal attack. I hope this is over on Monday as much as everyone else. I hope Dwayne is able to kick a**, and we see a picture of him in front of the PM3 showing a 5:5? and flying us all the bird.<br />

[[old] mpukita]

Sandor:<br /><br />Yes, there are many unseemly things that go through our minds but, after careful consideration, we would never utter. Chad slipped, as humans do, and then rufused to admit it, and, frankly, made matters much worse. He's not likely to have many people here jumping up to buy him a beer after a successful row at a public event, which is sad. They'll cheer him on, but only politely, as honorable people do, but will probably leave it at that. <br /><br />My daughter's new favorite saying is, "hate the game, not the player." Chad would have done well to follow her advice.<br /><br />Cheers -- Mark

[[old] TomR/the elder]

<br />[/quote]<br /> I hope this is over on Monday [right] <br />[/quote]<br /><br />This thread is going to end?<br /><br />I have to get a life?

[[old] Ducatista]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->NOW STOP SHIT STIRRING </td></tr></table><br />Nice try, but once you've opened the manure floodgates, it doesn't work to stomp your foot and demand that the shit stop flowing. Look, you've got some on your shoe.<br /><br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-Graham Benton+--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Graham Benton)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, I have to admit that I would love this debate put to bed with some sort of verified (beyond question) row. </td></tr></table><br />Debate is a generous term. Who woke it up in the first place? You and Chad et al could put it to bed yourselves, if you'd just give it a rest.<br /><br />I don't get it. Worrying about other people's posted times seems so childish. "But... but... but... what if he's <i>cheating?</i>" Well, what if he is? <i>So what?</i> It's no skin off your nose—unless you really, really need to be one rung higher in the rankings, which would just be sad. You get to be proud of your own times, regardless of what others post. You've earned it. A cheater will never know that satisfaction.<br /><br />And why fight such a losing battle? If people want to cheat, they will, no matter the safeguards. You cannot control what others post in the rankings. But you <i>can</i> control how much you let that get to you. Can't you?<br /><br />Fortune-cookie sidebar: The people I'm least inclined to trust are those who are the least trusting.