Dwyane Adams - Fake Or Real?

[[old] Yukon John]

The very nature of this thread is demeaning and insulting. People can do what they want, but I say "let this thread die." It is serving no purpose, that I can see, and should R.I.P. The best way to stop someone who won't listen to reason (i.e. can't take a clue) is to not respond. This has been suggested elsewhere when someone isn't working toward's the better good of our sport and community. I suggest it be applied here. "I do solemnly swear that I will not post or read this thread again ." Any other takers?

[[old] slo_boat]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 18 2006, 05:47 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 05:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will give you this one, to many punches to the head, 6 years of Boxing and 3 of Bushido does nothing for the spelling and grammar parts of the brain  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Pity that you have not learned bushido. <br /><br />Perhaps remedial reading of Sun Tsu, Lao Tse, or Miyamoto Musashi would be helpful to you. You are impertinent and rude and disrespectful. You are behaving without honor.<br /><br />You have may have learned to kick and punch, but you have not learned about conflict.<br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-TomR/the elder+Jan 18 2006, 02:49 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Jan 18 2006, 02:49 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How come we've only got 73 votes in the poll?<br /><br />Vote PaulS. You've posted enough to demonstrate you "care." Votes are anonymous.<br /><br />Also meaningless, but that's a whole nother matter.<br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mines not, I am 1 of the 16 (so far) that "Don't Care...if the times are real" in the context of Dwayne being "fake or real".<br /><br />I do care about the issue, which is not just the credibility of the rankings, but silly implications that question anyones integrity, and claiming ignorance of doing so, even acting the "victim".<br /><br />An honor system is just that, and there are not enough rules to make it anything else.<br /><br />If morals are enough, there would be no need for laws.<br />If morals are not enough, laws won't be effective.<br />Yes, there may be a problem, but it's probably not what we think it is, definitely not what we're being told it is, and there is likely no simple solution.

[[old] Chad Williams]

<!--QuoteBegin-slo_boat+Jan 18 2006, 06:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(slo_boat @ Jan 18 2006, 06:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 18 2006, 05:47 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 05:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will give you this one, to many punches to the head, 6 years of Boxing and 3 of Bushido does nothing for the spelling and grammar parts of the brain  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Pity that you have not learned bushido. <br /><br />Perhaps remedial reading of Sun Tsu, Lao Tse, or Miyamoto Musashi would be helpful to you. You are impertinent and rude and disrespectful. You are behaving without honor.<br /><br />You have may have learned to kick and punch, but you have not learned about conflict. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thank you for your comments. They will be taken on board.<br /><br />I take it that you too are not in the top 3 ranking list for your age cat?<br />Bit of a pattern forming here. Name callers and the people not in the top 3 ranking places are the ones that get all aggressive.<br /><br /> <br />

[[old] Chad Williams]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 18 2006, 06:03 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 18 2006, 06:03 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Mines not, I am 1 of the 16 (so far) that "Don't Care...if the times are real" in the context of Dwayne being "fake or real".<br /><br />I do care about the issue, which is not just the credibility of the rankings, but silly implications that question anyones integrity, and claiming ignorance of doing so, even acting the "victim".<br /><br />An honor system is just that, and there are not enough rules to make it anything else.<br /><br />If morals are enough, there would be no need for laws.<br />If morals are not enough, laws won't be effective.<br />Yes, there may be a problem, but it's probably not what we think it is, definitely not what we're being told it is, and there is likely no simple solution. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />If Dwayne had proof of his times then I would not have even started this thread!!<br /><br />If I started other Polls, like-<br /><br /><b>Graham Benton - Fake or Real</b>, do you think we would get the same respone. NO!!<br />Why?? because there is no mystery surrounding Graham Benton.<br /><br /><b>What about Pavel Shurmei Fake or Real</b><br />or<br /><b>George Bridgewater Fake or Real</b><br /><br />We have proof of what they have done.

[[old] Mark Keating]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are too many sad similarities to ignore here IMO.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />- numerous, repetitive postings<br /><br />- highly distrustful of others<br /><br />- unable to admit fault<br /><br />- etc, etc.

[[old] seat5]

I just got a PM3 almost expressly for the purpose of being able to verify my times for the rankings so as not to have to row times on a public erg, bla bla bla, for them to get a proper ranking number. It's really annoying--and I was quite surprised to find out it's true--that it's possible to get verifications for intervals that add up to ranking distances. But all C2 has to do to fix this is change the programming so that it won't verify a total distance that was done as intervals, or change it so that it counts in the rest time. That way it would be really dumb to try to rank intervals as a one piece distance because it would be so slow anyway.<br /><br />I hope this dumb loop hole gets fixed soon. <br /><br />

[[old] Citroen]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 18 2006, 09:48 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 18 2006, 09:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That said, there is C2 "verification" required for Top times, i.e.  I tested this by averaging 1:22.0 for 5 100m intervals, getting the PM3 code, and clicking on "rank", I get sent to a page that requests another code to be obtained from C2, which of course I'm not going to do for this piece. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Once you have that code from Dena at C2, it's good for the whole season. You don't need to request a unique code for each piece. I'm ranked 4th out of 45 for my LWT 40-49 HM and 2nd out of 9 for my LWT 40-49 4 minute both were entered using the same code.<br /><br />You can't get IND_V without Dena contacting your "independent" witnesses, but who would know if an anonymous non-specific Gmail/Yahoo/Hotmail/<insert webmail system here> address belonged to me or my witness or Chad Williams. <br /><br />I can also spoof any e-mail address I like - that's a trivial task. I have a personal domain, all mail routed to any.name.here@mydomain.co.uk will be forwarded to my personal e-mail address how would Dena know that Chad.Williams@mydomain.co.uk wasn't my id. I also have access to my wife's e-mail - she's on an entirely different ISP to me (again any item sent to somenamehere@mywifesdomain.co.uk gets forwarded to her id).<br /><br />That part of the ranking <b>honour</b> system is clearly open to abuse - even by folks with limited technical knowledge. The <u>only</u> solution would by to use public / private key cryptography to be able to generate a ranking that couldn't be repudiated - by using a key to sign an electronic document.<br /><br />The same holds true for fax, phone or snail-mail - unless I travel to Vermont and row at C2 headquarters (or Nottingham to row at C2 UK) or I row at an open public competition (like BIRC or a regional competition) or at a designated "training" event there is no way to prove anything.<br /><br />It can be positively proven that I rowed 3000m in 10:50.4, 805m in 2:44.9 and 2K in 7:04.9. (Those are the three races I've rowed.) Everything else I've done depends on my honour. The same would be true of Andreas, Dwayne, Graham Benton, Matt Pinsent, James Cracknell et al.<br /><br />In a few hours time James will be able to prove that he rowed across the Atlantic.

[[old] cbrock]

<!--QuoteBegin-seat5+Jan 19 2006, 08:16 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5 @ Jan 19 2006, 08:16 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I just got a PM3 almost expressly for the purpose of being able to verify my times for the rankings so as not to have to row times on a public erg, bla bla bla, for them to get a proper ranking number.  It's really annoying--and I was quite surprised to find out it's true--that it's possible to get verifications for intervals that add up to ranking distances.  But all C2 has to do to fix this is change the programming so that it won't verify a total distance that was done as intervals, or change it so that it counts in the rest time.  That way it would be really dumb to try to rank intervals as a one piece distance because it would be so slow anyway.<br /><br />I hope this dumb loop hole gets fixed soon. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Carla,<br />Thanks this is exactly the point.<br /><br />You are a top ranked woman, who should be proud of some outstanding times in her age group.<br /><br />I have no doubt that the ability to provide as much substantiation as possible every time you row a ranked time is very important to you and many many other rowers. <br /><br />I feel the same way even though I will never be a " Top Ranked" rower and my times are a bit of an embarrasment!.<br /><br />Unfortunately this point got terribly lost in the Dwayne Adams thing.<br /><br />I was just trying to see if C2 would pick up on the problem, and do something about it, on the off chance they were unaware of it.<br /><br />Good Luck at Boston if you are entered.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Chris

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 18 2006, 05:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 05:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jan 18 2006, 05:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jan 18 2006, 05:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 18 2006, 04:48 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 04:48 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Porkchop+Jan 18 2006, 04:30 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jan 18 2006, 04:30 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You keep saying that you aren't questioning anyone's integrity, but you always come back to the point that D's other times (all entered under an <b><i>honor</i></b> system) seem inconsistent with the times for which you seek proof.  The not-very-subtle implication is that you suspect (or perhaps even believe) that they are false.  Unless the posted times are the result of typographical errors, they must have been deliberately falsified.  Ergo, you question the integrity of the man who entered them.  <br /><br />As to your "challenge":  It would be impossible to overstate the depth of my indifference to whether you are satisfied with the system. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Porkchop<br /><br />I have never claimed that any times or distances posted by Dwayne are false.<br /><br />I have asked for some proof that they have been rowed. Why people go of at tangents all the time I do not know.<br /><br />The title of the poll should have been better worded I will give you that. <br /><br />Take me to a post that I have entered and show me where is have name called or called anybody a cheat?<br /><br />I have been name called many times on this thread, am I throwing my toys out of the pram? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Well, then, if I invited forum participants to participate in a poll with the following choices, you wouldn't feel at all insulted, would you?<br /><br /><i>Do you think Chad Williams is:<br /><br />-- A callow twit?<br /><br />-- An ignorant buffoon?<br /><br />-- Lacking in common decency?<br /><br />-- Inept in the use of the English language?<br /><br />-- A man with serious concerns about the system under which indoor rowing times are recorded, who expresses eloquently the heartfelt yearning of all forum members for validation of Dwayne Adams' times?<br /><br />OR<br /><br />-- None of the above?</i><br /><br />Bear in mind, I haven't called you any nasty names -- I've just invited everyone else to do that, which, I suppose, is okay under the "Chad" system of internet etiquette. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hey Porkchop.<br />Knock yourself out, sounds like fun, If you want to do a poll about the above I have no problem with it.<br /><br />You go and set it up while the grown ups talk about serious matters. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />And what are you going to be doing while the grownups are so occupied?

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-slo_boat+Jan 18 2006, 06:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(slo_boat @ Jan 18 2006, 06:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 18 2006, 05:47 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 05:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I will give you this one, to many punches to the head, 6 years of Boxing and 3 of Bushido does nothing for the spelling and grammar parts of the brain  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Pity that you have not learned bushido. <br /><br />Perhaps remedial reading of Sun Tsu, Lao Tse, or Miyamoto Musashi would be helpful to you. You are impertinent and rude and disrespectful. You are behaving without honor.<br /><br />You have may have learned to kick and punch, but you have not learned about conflict. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I would like to associate myself with your comment, slo boat, if I may. <br /><br />I've spent 35 years in and around the martial arts, have a 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo, and have had the honor to train with several very successful instructors and competitors, including a former PKA middleweight world champion kickboxer.<br /><br />A Confucian scholar would tell Chad, "Ni mei you li." (Sorry, but I have to omit the diacritical marks.) This is sometimes translated as "You are not sincere" (literally, "You don't have sincerity"). "Li" is the Chinese word that represents one's obligation to act in accordance with social expectations and courtesy. It is a key element in all martial arts systems and a fundamental tenet of bushido, the way of the warrior. Bluster, impertinence, and rudeness are no part of it.

[[old] TomR/the elder]

I'd like to ask a question to help clarify this for myself:<br /><br />Do people accept, as I do, that Dwayne erged a sub-6-minute 2k that was witnessed by a US Rowing official?<br /><br />Or do some people doubt that the alledged witness existed and that he never did that monster row?<br /><br />I figure the uncertainty is over the longer, unverified times. And that people are troubled that there is no certain way to verify times unless they are done in public w/ an audience of known persons of repute.<br /><br />I'm all for a little madness, but every now and then, even an anarchist has to ask himself, what's the point of all this?<br /><br />Tom

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-Andreas+Jan 18 2006, 05:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Andreas @ Jan 18 2006, 05:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulH+Jan 18 2006, 05:25 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulH @ Jan 18 2006, 05:25 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 18 2006, 05:21 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 05:21 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hi Andreas<br /><br />This does affect you a lot, like you say you are being pushed down a place in the rankings.<br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />But there are hundreds of people above me in the rankings, and they're each pushing me down a place. So how do you suggest they all prove their times?<br /><br />Respectfully,<br />Paul <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Paul <br />Your signature explains this question<br />Respectfully<br />Andreas <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I don't follow, Andreas - it clearly explains why they *ought* to be above me, but unless they prove their time there is, apparently, no reason to believe that they actually are above me.<br /><br />Cheers, Paul

[[old] PaulH]

<!--QuoteBegin-Chad Williams+Jan 18 2006, 05:36 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 05:36 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Paul, you should be one place higher than you are.<br /><br />They don't have to prove their times, they are not claiming World class times like Dwayne is.<br /><br />If I rowed a 18.57.1 for a 6000m I would back that up with evidance as I would be top of the 6000m tree for 40+ Hwts.<br /><br />Before you ask what evidance, I have been through this already, thanks <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, I should be hundreds of places higher - each one of those rowers hasn't proven that they did what they did. And in the absence of the rower immediately above them, each one is doing a world class time that needs to be proven.<br /><br />Let me put it another way; Presumably the person who did 18:57.2 would have to provide evidence as well, because that too must be a world class time. Ditto the person who did 18:57.3. So what time ceases to be world class? 19:00.0? 19:15.8? 21.54.8?<br /><br />Respectfully,<br />Paul

[[old] Citroen]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulH+Jan 19 2006, 02:00 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulH @ Jan 19 2006, 02:00 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me put it another way; Presumably the person who did 18:57.2 would have to provide evidence as well, because that too must be a world class time.  Ditto the person who did 18:57.3.  So what time ceases to be world class?  19:00.0? 19:15.8? 21.54.8? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Currently it's tenth place or better that needs a C2 verification code so for HWT 40-49 M that's 20:52.2 (LWT 40-49 M it's 22:39.4). <br />