Dwyane Adams - Fake Or Real?

[old] sherm · Post by **[old] sherm** » January 18th, 2006, 1:55 pm

i'm new to this thing but it seems to me that this chade dude should invest more energy in rowing and less in worrying about dwayne.

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » January 18th, 2006, 1:56 pm

Back in a similar thread last Jan, I posted this.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michaelb @ Jan 19 2005, 11:54 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I don't know why I got dragged into this thread, but now I can't find the previous thread I remember challenging Graham Benton's gold medal win in the absense of Dwayne Adams in the race (they were both 30+ heavies last year). For those questioning the validity of the 5:47 time, after searching the forums, I would point out that DA made the USIRT a couple of times (2002 and 2003?), which required qualifying rows before an official selected by C2. Here is an example from a post in the archived forum. The "problem" as I understand the history is that he didn't end up rowing in either competion.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Here is the 2003 U.S. Indoor Rowing Team:<br /><br />Women/ Age/ ace Category/ Time/Qualify/ Time Rowed <br />Kelly Foster / 18/ 18 Heavyweight/ 7:00.0/ 6:50.2<br />Alison Cox/ 24/ 19-29 Heavyweight/ 6:41.0/ 6:34.8<br />Lisa Schlenker/39/ 19-29 Lightweight/ 7:04.0/ 7:02.6<br />Joan Van Blom/ 51/ 50-59 Lightweight/ 7:42.0/ 7:29.7<br />Barbara Pike/ 62/ 60-69 Heavyweight/ 8:01.0/ 7:48.4<br />Luanne Mills/ 64/ 60-69 Lightweight/ 8:22.0/ 8:12.2<br /><br />Men/ Age/ Race Category/ Time/Qualify/ Time Rowed <br />Jamie Schroeder/22/ 19-29 Heavyweight/ 5:47.0/ 5:45.2 <br />Dwayne Adams/ 39/ 30-39 Heavyweight/ 5:55.0/ 5:49.1<br />Mike Connors/ 44/ 40-49 Heavyweight/ 6:10.0/ 6:08.6<br />Mike Caviston/ 42/ 40-49 Lightweight/ 6:23.0/ 6:22.4<br />T.J. Oesterling/55/ 50-59 Heavyweight/ 6:25.0/ 6:17.2 <br />Paul Hendershott/59*/60-69 Heavyweight/ 6:46.0*/ 6:24.4<br /><br />*Paul will turn 60 on November 20th <br /><br />The makeup of the team was discussed with our coach, Mike Teti,<br />and my assistant manager, Brickett Bailey, but the final selections were my decision (and my decision alone). No one at Concept2 (our sponsor) had any part in the selection process.<br /><br />Congratulations to all of the team members as well as to all of those who tried out, and to all of those who donated their time and facilities.<br /><br />Robert Brody<br />Team Manager<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />This post includes some of the interesting bantor:<br /><a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=56' target='_blank'>Battle of the Giants</a><br /><br />This is the post about the 5:47, not official world record row:<br /><a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=490' target='_blank'>World Record Smashed</a> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1194' target='_blank'>Dwayne</a><br /><br />I don't believe there is or was a basis to question his 5:49 row before a USIRT representative in 2003. So that seems to be pretty conclusive proof that Dwayne was Sub 6 in 2003 and backs up the witnessed 5:47 last year.<br /><br />I agree that Dwayne needs to race at the Crash-bs or some other officially sanctioned event in order to claim a world record in the 2k. Right now Tom Bohrer is defending world champion and Andreas was 2nd (crash-bs 2005). But the rankings are the rankings, and not official results, so this is also way over the top in terms of hysteria to me.<br />

[old] Chad Williams · Post by **[old] Chad Williams** » January 18th, 2006, 3:31 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Jan 18 2006, 12:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Tom Gallegher (spelling). Was a USIRT official at the time. Last time I knew he was working for Sykes Racing North America (out of Philly I think). </td></tr></table><br /><br />If he verified the piece to C2 then this should be over! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That is correct. As long as it falls within the C2 guidelines for rowing the piece. I still don't think it would be classed as a World Record, but yes, a varied sub 5.50 it would be.

[old] Chad Williams · Post by **[old] Chad Williams** » January 18th, 2006, 3:35 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(sherm @ Jan 18 2006, 12:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>i'm new to this thing but it seems to me that this chade dude should invest more energy in rowing and less in worrying about dwayne. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So you know who much rowing and erging I do then? So I need to do more do I? <br /><br />How much do I owe your for you coaching advice?

[old] Porkchop · Post by **[old] Porkchop** » January 18th, 2006, 3:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 10:23 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Daren C @ Jan 18 2006, 10:16 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 02:52 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I need to prove to people that things need to change </td></tr></table><br /><br />Feel free to start offering evidence in this case, any time. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The case for the defence rests, show me what you got Daren, just a few more one liners I bet. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />If you want to put this issue in legal terms, then, as far as I can tell, you seem to be the prosecution, not the defense -- you have the burden of going forward and establishing a <i>prima facie</i> case. What people are telling you is that you have not done so -- questions and innuendo may be effective rhetorical devices, but they are not evidence. Yet when asked to provide evidence, you try to put the burden of proof back on the other side.<br /><br />The problem is that you purport to do one thing (question the structure and verifiablity of the ranking system) but actually do another (publicly question the records of a single individual).<br /><br />There is an honor system here, and you have questioned someone's integrity. In the old days, you two would simply have repaired to the field of honor with seconds and dueling pistols. It wouldn't have proved who was right or wrong, but it would have ended the argument (and more to the point, this interminable thread).<br /><br />I think everyone can agree that there may be holes in the system. So what? The ranking system has no significance outside the insular world of indoor rowing on C2 machines. (Notwithstanding the market dominance of C2, there are other indoor rowing machines out there. There is no attempt to compare performances between different manufacturers' machines. This is an inhouse program to gain publicity and sell more machines -- and very well done as a public relations matter.) <br /><br />Unlike many other sports, there is very little money at stake for the athletes (travel money for the USIRT trip to EIRC and a few free trips to the CRASH-B's pretty much covers it. There's no prize money at stake. There is precious little glory -- when, if ever, has anyone seen a banner headline that said something like "Porkchop Wins at CRASH-B's!" (Not that that would ever happen.)) <br /><br />We all do this because (for some twisted reason), we think it is fun, or maybe because we think it is good for us. We post on the forums for information and amusement, and we form virtual teams for mutual support and comradeship.<br /><br />Chad, there are very few (if any) people besides yourself who care about this issue. Your nagging is not winning you adherents. Time to give it a rest.

[old] Chad Williams · Post by **[old] Chad Williams** » January 18th, 2006, 3:38 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Jan 18 2006, 12:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>If he verified the piece to C2 then this should be over! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />With regards to the 5:47.1 row. not all the on-line ranking pieces, they still need proof.<br /><br />

[old] PaulH · Post by **[old] PaulH** » January 18th, 2006, 3:39 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Jan 18 2006, 12:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Fred, you wrote: "Who's claiming World Records, I just checked the World Record Site maintained by C2 and Dwayne is not listed. "<br /><br />I just checked the C2 WR site (link from the Rankings page) and found Dwayne listed as 40-50 yr old record holder for 5k, 6k, and 10k, all rowed in 2005. (He might be listed at other distances, I didn't bother to look.)<br /><br />I can't account for the difference between what you found and I did, unless you were looking at all-time records vs the age-group records I searched.<br /><br />Tom <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think you're referring to the World Rankings, which are separate from any claims of a World Record. Dwayne's only claim is that he rowed the times he logged in those events that year.

[old] PaulH · Post by **[old] PaulH** » January 18th, 2006, 3:44 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 02:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Jan 18 2006, 12:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>If he verified the piece to C2 then this should be over! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />With regards to the 5:47.1 row. not all the on-line ranking pieces, they still need proof. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Why should they need proof any more than my times do? Dwayne isn't claiming he rowed the fastest time of the year, or the 10th fastest, or the 100th fastest. He's just saying that he rowed time X for distance Y, which is exactly what I do. The only difference is that his X is faster than mine, as are most peoples'. I trust by now it's been demonstrated that he has the ability to row at those broad levels of achievement by his verified performance in the 2k. I have never proven that I can row at my level of achievement to anyone except my wife (and I'm sure the other people in my 8 sometimes question even those trifling efforts), yet you don't question me. Do you?<br /><br />Respectfully,<br />Paul

[old] Chad Williams · Post by **[old] Chad Williams** » January 18th, 2006, 3:51 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Porkchop @ Jan 18 2006, 02:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>If you want to put this issue in legal terms, then, as far as I can tell, you seem to be the prosecution, not the defense -- you have the burden of going forward and establishing a <i>prima facie</i> case. What people are telling you is that you have not done so -- questions and innuendo may be effective rhetorical devices, but they are not evidence. Yet when asked to provide evidence, you try to put the burden of proof back on the other side.<br /><br />The problem is that you purport to do one thing (question the structure and verifiablity of the ranking system) but actually do another (publicly question the records of a single individual). <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /> Porkchop, don't be such a drama queen. This is a internet forum not a courtroom.<br /><br />I use one "legal" term and you start sounding like a lawyer.<br /><br />I have not questioned any ones integrity. You must be sick of reading it as I am sick of typing it, I have just asked for proof.<br /><br />I have shown you holes in the system that let people add times to a ranking system that can not be proven.<br />I ask you to prove to me, as an example, that Dwayne rowed a 19.16.2 6000m as listed in the rankings and I will prove to you that Andreas Van Tonder (in 2nd place in the rankings) rowed a 19.54.8<br />

[old] Chad Williams · Post by **[old] Chad Williams** » January 18th, 2006, 3:59 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulH @ Jan 18 2006, 02:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>yet you don't question me. Do you?<br /><br />Respectfully,<br />Paul <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />With respect Paul, you are not claiming to have rowed a sub 5.50 2000m on more than one occasion, you do not also row and log 10+ million meters a year, sub 1.15 500m times, 1000m at 1.20 pace.<br /><br />Maybe if you turned up at at least 4 public competitions DNS in 1, DNF in another and not row sub 7 minutes in the other 2 after claiming you can row sub 6 then………..you understand where I am coming from?<br />

[old] PaulH · Post by **[old] PaulH** » January 18th, 2006, 4:17 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 02:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulH @ Jan 18 2006, 02:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>yet you don't question me. Do you?<br /><br />Respectfully,<br />Paul <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />With respect Paul, you are not claiming to have rowed a sub 5.50 2000m on more than one occasion, you do not also row and log 10+ million meters a year, sub 1.15 500m times, 1000m at 1.20 pace.<br /><br />Maybe if you turned up at at least 4 public competitions DNS in 1, DNF in another and not row sub 7 minutes in the other 2 after claiming you can row sub 6 then………..you understand where I am coming from? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No I don't. But I'll take your challenge to porkchop, with only one modification. Pick any of my times from this or last year's ranking and prove that I did it, and I'll prove that Dwayne did one of the times from the ranking. The only difference I can see is that you find his times to be too fast to be credible. That doesn't actually make them any less credible than my times, so this seems like a very even challenge. You first.<br /><br />Respectfully,<br />Paul

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 18th, 2006, 4:20 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 11:51 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I ask you to prove to me, as an example, that Dwayne rowed a 19.16.2 6000m as listed in the rankings and I will prove to you that Andreas Van Tonder (in 2nd place in the rankings) rowed a 19.54.8 <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Still too curious for my own good.<br /><br />How are you going to "prove" Andreas' time for 6k? I believe Andreas, and have met him, but I was not there to see his performance, were you? If so, then who are you for me to believe? Are you now choosing to believe the 5:47.1 2k but nothing that does not have an IND_v next to it.<br /><br />Have you ever accomplished something outstanding that you would not be willing to do again? (It was too painful to contemplate, too risky, etc....) We can't really be expected to have live video of everything we've done, can we?<br /><br />There have been many times throughout the years that someone has entered a ranking time and made a mistake (5k time for a 6k distance, or some other typo), people generally say something about it and often the person says what happened and makes the correction, they have even apologized for the confusion. But put yourself in the position of posting an accomplished time that was not on an updated PM3 or in front of any withnesses, just you and the potted plants. Then having it questioned by a stranger? Would you decide to just remove the time that you know is true? What would you do?<br /><br />You have risked nothing by "calling Dwayne out", perhaps a wager to make it worth his while to "prove it". The purchase of a PM3 for Dwaynes home machine would probably do it. Everyone wins, you get the proof you need and Dwayne gets the means to provide it for everyone that cares.<br /><br />I like PC's idea: Afterall, "A dueling society is a polite society."

[old] TomR/the elder · Post by **[old] TomR/the elder** » January 18th, 2006, 4:24 pm

PaulH--<br /><br />Thank you for the clarification.<br /><br />I think my confusion came from the heading on that particular "ranking" page:<br /><br /><b>World Records For All Ranking Distances</b><br /><br />Yom

[old] Daren C · Post by **[old] Daren C** » January 18th, 2006, 4:24 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 07:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I have not questioned any ones integrity.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sure you have.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Chad Williams @ Jan 18 2006, 07:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I have just asked for proof.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />See?<br /><br />

[old] PaulH · Post by **[old] PaulH** » January 18th, 2006, 4:29 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(TomR/the elder @ Jan 18 2006, 03:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>PaulH--<br /><br />Thank you for the clarification.<br /><br />I think my confusion came from the heading on that particular "ranking" page:<br /><br /><b>World Records For All Ranking Distances</b><br /><br />Yom <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Interesting - following your directions (and my wife can tell you that this isn't a strong point of mine!) I got to a page that sounds like the one you were describing, but that said World Ranking. Can you post a link? It's not important, but I'm intrigued!<br /><br />Cheers, Paul

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Dwyane Adams - Fake Or Real?

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