Standards For Ranking And Records

[old] Daren C · Post by **[old] Daren C** » January 19th, 2006, 3:29 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Jan 19 2006, 06:26 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I take it you do not accept that the women's 2k record was broken recently in the French team trials? </td></tr></table> Sorry, NavigationHazard, I don't see the relevance of the assertion/question, nor from whence your conclusions are drawn. I haven't taken any stance regarding what does happen currently, merely stated what, in my opinion, should happen in the future. If that Women's 2K record was broken recently and is accepted and legitimised by the current standards, that's good enough for me, and I'm not about to dispute its validity. So, yes, I accept it.

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » January 19th, 2006, 4:29 pm

The point was that to the best of my knowledge, the only witness present for the French row was the national coach, and it presumably was done behind closed doors at a time and perhaps place of the athlete's choosing. None of which makes it any less valid under the current regime, IMO, and I'm glad that you agree. I agree in principle that it would be nice if record-setting performances were done in public so that everyone could enjoy them. However I don't see any good way to make that happen, especially for Olympic/national-squad athletes whose coaches have vested interests in managing the reports of their training. So we're either left with accepting whatever times/distances the coaches choose to release to the public, hoping that national trials are done at public events (e.g. this year's BIRC), or living with a set of "WRs" that rejects fast times pulled by elite OTW rowers as part of their training.

[old] Graham Benton · Post by **[old] Graham Benton** » January 19th, 2006, 4:52 pm

Unfortunately the BIRCs are at the wrong time of the season for the squad athletes to be in top form for a flat out 2k - they have typically just had a 3 week break and then started on heavy weights and long ergs. They are in better shape in the spring when the national trials are hled and when Matthew Pinsent last broke the British record. I would like to see a definite list of verified world and national records for all the various age groups and distances. I have had a number of unofficial or world's fastest times associated with me based on nothing more than people's belief or recollection that no-one has ever rowed quicker. I'd love to know for sure. As the records would be starting from now in some cases due to a lack of provable historical times (ie. I don't think I could prove my 1:14.8 500m), some of the records might start out quite weak, but would progress over time to represent genuine world class times. Any list of bests has to start somewhere and will inherently get faster over time. The greater the list of distances, times, events, and age groups that were recorded, the greater the opportunity for people to have a crack at new records.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 19th, 2006, 5:34 pm

Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:05 pm on the UK forum: "I'm not sure what the C2 rules are but the remarkable Lyle Parker rowed 6:37.7 when he was 57 or 58 in a erg regatta in Australia. "For several years this time was listed incorrectly as the 60-64 record, and one stumbles across it still. E.g., <a href='http://www.rudern1.de/Ergometer/2003/02/1348.php' target='_blank'>http://www.rudern1.de/Ergometer/2003/02/1348.php</a> "I thought 6:37.7 was improbable for 60-69 for statistical reasons (too many standard deviations) and eventually managed to find Lyle by telephone. "He was quite lovely about the whole thing and grateful that C2 recognized the real 60 - 69 record eventually. He rowed the 6:46.6 in his garage witnessed by several members of his YMCA the first Sunday after his 60th birthday. "6:37.7 is the real 55-59 record, I think, whether or not it meets the new standards for recognition. "Steve Schaffran"

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 19th, 2006, 5:39 pm

steves Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:07 pm on the UK forum: Subject: more on Lyle Parker's 6:37.7 "I've found my digital files on Lyle but not yet the two letters I got from him. "According to my notes, Parker’s 6:37.7 was rowed Dec 19, 1995, when he was 56 + 6 months old . His 56th birthday was May 1. "This was the 50 - 59 ltwt mark for about 38 months. Tardieu broke it shortly after he turned 50, at the 1999 Crash-B's if I'm not mistaken."

[old] slo_boat · Post by **[old] slo_boat** » January 19th, 2006, 6:40 pm

Hey everyone. Thanks for your input. Let's keep tossing ideas out there. So far there seems to be consensus that some sort of honor based system that includes all distances and times should remain. People also would like some sort of more formal or official "record" system. Here's a list so far. 1. Keep the informal rankings 2. Have a formal system for recognizing "official" records. 3. We have to agree on what consititutes a venue. 4. We have to agree on what consititutes an official. 5. If events are going to be the place "records" are made, then there needs to be more events. I'm going on a brief vacation to play in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area. (Yes I know it is cold.) See you in a week or so. I hope you all have it sorted out by then! If this thread does not deteriorate too badly over the next week, if it even lasts that long. I will try to figure out the the big areas of agreement and disagreement and post a summary. Will this accomplish anything? Who knows? At least it is a start.

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » January 19th, 2006, 7:00 pm

The good news about hanging around places like Ely this time of year is that even the mosquitoes have to snowshoe.

[old] cbrock · Post by **[old] cbrock** » January 19th, 2006, 7:37 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Graham Benton @ Jan 20 2006, 04:52 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Unfortunately the BIRCs are at the wrong time of the season for the squad athletes to be in top form for a flat out 2k - they have typically just had a 3 week break and then started on heavy weights and long ergs. They are in better shape in the spring when the national trials are hled and when Matthew Pinsent last broke the British record. I would like to see a definite list of verified world and national records for all the various age groups and distances. I have had a number of unofficial or world's fastest times associated with me based on nothing more than people's belief or recollection that no-one has ever rowed quicker. I'd love to know for sure. As the records would be starting from now in some cases due to a lack of provable historical times (ie. I don't think I could prove my 1:14.8 500m), some of the records might start out quite weak, but would progress over time to represent genuine world class times. Any list of bests has to start somewhere and will inherently get faster over time. The greater the list of distances, times, events, and age groups that were recorded, the greater the opportunity for people to have a crack at new records. </td></tr></table> Graham, I think we initially need to establish "World Records" that are recognised only at Sanctioned Meets, as is the case with the 2k. There seems to be a real need to allow participants to row other distances besides the 2k. Why can't Concept2 also provide an opportunity for world ranked athletes to participate in a distance event. If for example they conducted a 5k event as the last event of each MAJOR MEET and offered $5000 to any medal winner at the champs who broke his respective world record then I am sure there would be some takers. Personally I would love to watch all these champions duking it out. The distance could be changed at each event. (eg: 5k at Euros, 10k at Boston and half marathon at BIRC. Regards, Chris

[old] kinley · Post by **[old] kinley** » January 19th, 2006, 7:54 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>5. If events are going to be the place "records" are made, then there needs to be more events. </td></tr></table> From the context, I assume: events = competitions. But there would need to be more classes (events?) within each competition, or at least opportunity to establish times at distances other than 2k. Or the arguments will continue. In the 90s I used to compete in a little club-sponsored erg race that publicized itself as happening between 9am-noon. You could show up any old time within that window, and row your piece. Similarly, perhaps "open houses" could be arranged where ergs and officials, whoever they are determined to be, are present, and rowers can row verified times in the ranking distance of their choice. Or maybe that's too much trouble to go to for an activity that, as others have pointed out, is essentially a training tool.

[old] Graham Benton · Post by **[old] Graham Benton** » January 20th, 2006, 3:47 am

Much as I would love the opportunity to try and win some money for my erg performances, and it would certainly motivate me, the money just isn't in the sport. In the UK, the British Indoors do not currently have a sponsor and therefore the indoor racing season has been scaled down and the size of the sponsored UK team for Boston has also been reduced from what I remember a few years ago. The sport is awesome and the level of dedication displayed from world champions through to grass roots is astounding but the sport just doesn't have a lot of sponsor appeal unfortunately. For example, It's quite depressing to see 20 stone blokes with a pint in their hand winning £250,000 for throwing darts into a board when we train to the level we do for nothing. Yes, they train for many hours a day but I think that they probably rarely train to the point of throwing up, rarely have to tape their hands up just to enable them to be able to grip the handle due to blisters, and rarely go into a final knowing that it is going to hurt to the point that you will think about stopping every race.

[old] ancho · Post by **[old] ancho** » January 20th, 2006, 9:24 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Graham Benton @ Jan 20 2006, 08:47 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>... to the point of throwing up, rarely have to tape their hands up just to enable them to be able to grip the handle due to blisters, and rarely go into a final knowing that it is going to hurt to the point that you will think about stopping every race. </td></tr></table> Great post, but well, that's what rowing is about... And "abroad" you still have huge popular support compared to other countries... Keep it on!

[old] Ralph Earle · Post by **[old] Ralph Earle** » January 20th, 2006, 11:48 pm

I advocate that WRs at any distance or time be recognized only for performances at open competitions sanctioned by Concept2, but I'm wiliing to accept national team trials so long as the computer hardware/software used is the same as used at C2 competitions.

[old] cbrock · Post by **[old] cbrock** » January 21st, 2006, 12:19 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Jan 21 2006, 11:48 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I advocate that WRs at any distance or time be recognized only for performances at open competitions sanctioned by Concept2, but I'm wiliing to accept national team trials so long as the computer hardware/software used is the same as used at C2 competitions. </td></tr></table> Until we put pressure on Concept2 to provide a mandatory "distance" event with each championship and sanctioned meet, then the abscence of any races greater than 2k makes this unworkable. As per my recent post, it would be very easy to schedule a 5k, 6k or 10k event as the LAST event of each championship or sanctioned meet. It would not have to be seperated into age divisions until sufficient overall entries made that a necessity. I think the interest would be very strong. As to existing "World Records" as a courtesy I beleive they should still stand. However only records broken in sanctioned meets from the date they change the rules would be recognised. Regards, Chris

[old] Ralph Earle · Post by **[old] Ralph Earle** » January 21st, 2006, 2:17 am

[/quote] Until we put pressure on Concept2 to provide a mandatory "distance" event with each championship and sanctioned meet, then the abscence of any races greater than 2k makes this unworkable. <snip>Regards, Chris [/quote] In addition to the 2K: The US and Australia run sanctioned events at 500m. Britain runs sanctioned events at 500m, 1K, 1609m and 5K. Germany runs sanctioned events at 30min and 60min. Scandanavia runs sanctioned events at HM and M. New Zealand runs sanctioned events at 100m, 300m, 500m, 1K, 10K, 60min, HM, M and 100K. If you want to set a WR, the only limitations are your wallet and tolerance for jet lag (and not specializing in the 6K).

[old] cbrock · Post by **[old] cbrock** » January 21st, 2006, 3:34 am

[quote=Ralph Earle,Jan 21 2006, 02:17 PM] [/quote] Until we put pressure on Concept2 to provide a mandatory "distance" event with each championship and sanctioned meet, then the abscence of any races greater than 2k makes this unworkable. <snip>Regards, Chris [/quote] In addition to the 2K: The US and Australia run sanctioned events at 500m. Britain runs sanctioned events at 500m, 1K, 1609m and 5K. Germany runs sanctioned events at 30min and 60min. Scandanavia runs sanctioned events at HM and M. New Zealand runs sanctioned events at 100m, 300m, 500m, 1K, 10K, 60min, HM, M and 100K. If you want to set a WR, the only limitations are your wallet and tolerance for jet lag (and not specializing in the 6K). [/quote] Ralph, My reference was in relation to distances >2k I wasn't aware of the German & Scandanavian events. However, what I would most like to see is a 5k, 6k or 10k being held as part of: (1) the major championships in Boston, BIRC, and Europe. (2) All national Champs such as Aust, NZ etc Regards, Chris

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