Standards For Ranking And Records

[[old] slo_boat]

On another thread, I said that I would initiate a discussion about ranking and record standards. The debate is not new. Here are two other threads. (There are plenty more.)<br /><br /><a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1907' target='_blank'>http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... 907</a><br /><br /><a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1915' target='_blank'>http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... 915</a><br /><br />My proposal is:<br /><br />A. Continue the rankings as they are. They are an honor system and are a great way for people to make informal comparisons that they can use for whatever purpose they desire. The rankings should continue to include self-reported rows without regard to whether they were training, competitive events, or something else. <br /><br />B. Develop a new set of rankings for performances at public events. (Events established solely for the purpose of setting a record are acceptable.) Divide the records between actual and virtual events. Maintain existing weight classes and age groups. Establish official distances for competition purposes and encourage major competions to offer events at different distances.<br /><br />Comments?

[[old] Chad Williams]

Slo_boat.<br /><br />Thanks for starting this thread up. I am off to train now; I will have a think as I row and come back and comment later.<br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

What, no personal attacks on real people?!?!?!?!?<br /><br />This thread will be abandoned quickly, because it's already been hashed out quite thoroughly, as Slo_boat has pointed out.<br /><br />Just a guess. <br /><br />I'll still try to extend it's life a bit.<br /><br />One thing that I would really like to see is an historical record of WR's, at a minimum it would be nice to see the dates that current WR's were set, but being able to see how/when they have progressed over the years would be very interesting. YMMV.<br /><br />Cheers.

[[old] hjs]

It would be nice If the rankings would have a way off linking race results to a name. We all agree (I think ) that one result in line with the rankings is enough proof to make all results achieveble. <br />This way clicking on that link would be enough to see a persons erg historie.

[[old] Kappy]

I am with slo boat.<br /><br />The only change I would want to see with the online ranking - is more participation by a wider range of elite rowers. I believe that by keeping it casual and easy to post - this might eventually encourage more widespread reporting of how people are erging.<br /><br />These demands of 'prove it' are just ridiculous. When someone competes - thats when the proof happens. To me the online ranking is to give you a chance to see whats going on generally.<br /><br />And might as well bump this thread. Obviously some of us are new and have not had a chance to beat this dead horse yet.<br /><br />kappy

[[old] John Rupp]

It's just been verified that Lyle Parker rowed his 6:37.7 at age 57 or 58 and thus he has the 55+ world record.<br /><br />Lyle Parker is the 55+ record holder with a 6:37.7.

[[old] Mark Keating]

I agree with what slo_boat and Paul have said:<br /><br />- two sets of rankings, one self-reported set and one based on C2 sanctioned public performances. Let C2 develop their own criteria for those.<br /><br />- it would be nice to have a historical record of all WR's - who set them, race location, date, pace, age, etc. etc.<br /><br />All records should be accessible from one website.<br /><br />Have a good day!<br /><br />Mark

[[old] Daren C]

I do think that recognised World Records should only be set at qualifying events. Since there's clearly scope for deception, those events, in my opinion, should be limited to those sanctioned by C2 and attended by a C2 representative.* Yes, this would exclude casual witnesses. I'm fairly sure that these sort of standards are applied to records in the field of althletics and cycling, for example.<br /><br />The online rankings could be retained with times thereon classified as something else, such as a "Virtual World Best", or something. <br /><br /><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>* in lieu of any independent governing body - should such a body come to be, it would take over responsibility for overseeing and validating records.</span>

[[old] NavigationHazard]

1) There already aren't enough C2 representatives to go round to all the sanctioned events everywhere in the world.<br /><br />2) C2 already accepts national team-test results for record purposes, on the (to me quite acceptable) theory that team erg tests are where the big boys and girls really go flat out, and that national coaches/staff ought to be trustworthy enough to report results that actually have happened -- when they deign to report them, given that it's not always a good idea to let your competition know how fit you really are. Do you really think that Mike Teti, say, would be happy with the idea that a C2 representative should be present for all US team testing in the off chance that someone might pull a record and need verification?<br /><br />3) Even bodies that have standards and verification committies and other bureaucratic apparatus for managing records still have problems. Consider the Chinese women's distance runners a few years back, or the Myanmar "grandmasters" in chess who exploited loopholes in the FIDE ranking system to enter the world top 25 fraudulently. Granting that the C2 system perhaps could be improved, I seriously doubt that it can be made spoofproof without seriously impinging on the fragile sense of community that presently exists among rowers. <br /><br />I would rather have lots and lots of people rowing and ranking their times/distances on the honor system, with the occasional problem, than people turned off from the sport by excessive rules, regulations, and a sense that your results are automatically tainted unless/until proven legitimate.

[[old] Daren C]

I'm not primarily concerned with what the US IRT think, and I don't know who Mike Teti is.<br /><br />If someone ran a WR 1500m at his country's national athletic trials (assuming those trials are no conducted through national events in the public eye), would it be recognised? If so, then sure, the same rules could apply for national rowing team trials. If not, then I see no good reason why results from trials behind closed doors should be allowed to stand as World Records.

[[old] NavigationHazard]

Mike Teti is the US national rowing team head coach.<br /><br />He is essentially the US equivalent of Jurgen Grobler, who I suspect would be equally put out at the notion that he couldn't be trusted to vouch for results generated by team trials.<br /><br />I take it you do not accept that the women's 2k record was broken recently in the French team trials? <br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 19 2006, 08:50 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 19 2006, 08:50 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's just been verified that Lyle Parker rowed his 6:37.7 at age 57 or 58 and thus he has the 55+ world record.<br /><br />Lyle Parker is the 55+ record holder with a 6:37.7. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Really, can you back that up?<br /><br />I can find that Lyle held the WR for M50-59 lwt, 6:41.6 as of 1997, but can't find anything similar for the 6:37.7. <br /><a href='http://www.regatta.rowing.org.uk/records-ergs.html' target='_blank'>http://www.regatta.rowing.org.uk/record ... tml</a><br /><br />I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but the search should have turned up both. It also turned up his 60-69 WR. Why would it miss the most spectacular one?<br />

[[old] Porkchop]

Daren,<br /><br />I believe that when NavHaz referred to national teams, he was referring to on-water rowers. Mike Teti is (was? I really don't keep up with this on a regular basis) the coach of the US Men's national team. The point was that when national/olympic team qualification trials include erg tests as part of the qualifying process, C2 accepts them as valid. Presumably, this applies to all national teams. This has nothing to do with the USIRT, which is a private group funded by C2 for competition in indoor rowing events.<br /><br />All,<br /><br />I think that Slo boat's suggestion makes a great deal of sense.<br /><br />I would also point out that a "world record" on an erg is impressive to no one but someone else who uses an erg (unfortunately, a very small portion of humanity). That and $2.38 will get you a grande cafe latte at Starbucks. It is hardly worth the kind of character assassination and trial by innuendo going on in "another place."

[[old] rspenger]

This seems like the right time and place to toss this one in. It seems to be accepted that IRC event records are valid without question and I haven’t seen any comments about possible loopholes. However, after 10 such events over the past 12 years (6 satellite regattas, 3 CRASH-Bs, and an EIRC), I don’t recall ever hearing of a gender check (at least for those of us who don’t wear Lycra) and I have never had an age check. Also, since membership in the USIRDS and USIRT required U.S. citizenship, C2 was very trusting in not requiring proof of the same.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />Bob S., casting the lure into deep waters.<br />

[[old] TPMcT]

<!--QuoteBegin-rspenger+Jan 19 2006, 02:09 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(rspenger @ Jan 19 2006, 02:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This seems like the right time and place to toss this one in. It seems to be accepted that IRC event records are valid without question and I haven’t seen any comments about possible loopholes. However, after 10 such events over the past 12 years (6 satellite regattas, 3 CRASH-Bs, and an EIRC), I don’t recall ever hearing of a gender check (at least for those of us who don’t wear Lycra) and I have never had an age check. Also, since membership in the USIRDS and USIRT required U.S. citizenship, C2 was very trusting in not requiring proof of the same.<br /><br />Just a thought.<br /><br />Bob S., casting the lure into deep waters. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Bob,<br /><br />I laughed so hard at this I nearly wet myself. As a point of order, would you please be the first on the gender check? We need a man of your age and stature to lead us into . . . the deep waters.<br /><br />By the way, let me add that you are my hero. Hope you make it to the Crash-B's.<br /><br />Tim McTighe