Virtual reality rowing

[filetorish]

Hey folks,

I'm new to this forum but I'm a big fan of Concept2. I wanted to gauge your interest in a new product my co-founder and close friend are building (we don't work for Concept2).

We are a couple of software/hardware geeks that are fascinated with VR and the applications to fitness. In a nutshell, we're building a device that you'd plug into the PM on your Concept2. You could then put on a Gear VR (https://www.oculus.com/en-us/gear-vr/) and row through virtual rivers where your movements on the rower will calibrate your experience. Imagine racing friends on a fjord in Norway from the comfort of your home.

From a tech perspective, we're building software that runs on the device that will shoot data via bluetooth to a VR app on the phone clipped into your VR headset. The cool thing about this is that we could also easily shoot your rowing stats to another app like FitBit. I've been wanting to track my rowing stats in FitBit for some time but haven't found a clean solution.

We're still heads down building this, but if you're interested, please sign up here: http://www.cobaltgym.com/

I'd love to hear whether this is something you'd use. I'm also happy to answer any questions you may have here or via email at rkhullar@cobaltgym.com.

Thanks,
Rishi

[Carl Watts]

Probably not but instead use your efforts to integrate the virtual reality into different courses you can select on RowPro.

This must be time consuming stuff to convert from actual video to graphics video so you can just have it on the LCD bigscreen TV. Suggested this to Pete at RowPro years ago, they need to have various lakes around the world that you can choose to the background scenery changes and there are even bridges etc. Not sure why they didn't use the graphics they already developed years ago at lake Karapiro and make that a 2k race course. All the spectators cheering in the stands with the audio and graphics to match made the last few hundred meters fantastic as you approached the finish line.

Different scenery is great but only if it integrates with online rowing and there are others your rowing with or I don't really see the point you may as well just put a Go Pro on a row boat and put the video direct on the big screen and play it while your rowing to keep you entertained.

Have you looked at RowPro ? The graphics have improved significantly over the last few years but would still be extremely poor by modern "Gamers" standards.

Reality is RowPro has been around for years and its still to hit critical mass in terms of those using it. I have come to the conclusion this sort of thing appeals to only a very small percentage of people so the only way to grow it is by increasing the numbers that have access to it and this is where the hardware has held it back. Once you have the monitor on Bluetooth and an App on your smartphone the numbers should tripple with all the gym users that can now use it as well.

I think you can forget about people rowing with something stuck on their face, thats never going to happen for a list of reasons as long as my arm.

[jag]

I think this could be an interesting product. But it would be important to provide a version that can be used with a TV screen and doesn't require a VR headset. Everyone has a TV, and the current VR headsets are not amenable to being worn on gym equipment - too heavy (your head moves a lot when rowing) and too fragile and messy (sweating). As VR headsets mature it may be possible to find a headset it would work well with. But for now, simply providing some real video of on the water rowing that syncs with your erg rowing, and displays on a big screen, would be great. Simulating a race would be ultimate, but even providing something more interesting to look at than the junk in your basement with a small PM screen - simulating paddling down a river would be cool.

Interfacing with RowPro may be the way to go, but RowPro is mainly for people who love looking at their data, thus it has never really appealed to me, so that may limit your market some (I don't know how many RowPro users there are?). And it would require an agreement with RowPro company.

[kris-o]

I would really like to try this VR solution. It seems that it can be one of these things that seem not needed/useful but can bring the "wow" factor, if delivered properly. All depends on the implementation.
It would need to have big database of locations, since many of us do row 5-7 days/week
I would probably use it together with some audiobook.

To tell you the truth, i even do not need to row in this VR world - i could accept riding on some trail/road/track - just for the sake of fun and excersise
It cannot be worse than looking at the force curve for 45 minutes almost every day

[Carl Watts]

RowPro is mainly for people who love looking at their data, thus it has never really appealed to me, so that may limit your market some (I don't know how many RowPro users there are?). And it would require an agreement with RowPro company.

The only reason I bought it was for the virtual river on the big screen and the online live rowing with others. With the large flat screen LCD TV's that you can now put on the wall in front of your rower its entered a new phase.

The data is just a bonus and I don't even use that anymore, all I need these days is the LogBook which will seamlessly integrate and Sync with the Concept 2 Logbook in the next version without having to do the manual upload after every row.

With the right graphics RowPro would not be virtual rowing, it would be actual rowing. Currently its only limited by the resources being put into it so I don't see the point in fragmenting the market and ending up with several products all trying to do the same thing and none of them being as good as they could be.

A pool of people working on the same product for what is currently a very small market of those interested in this sort of thing is the way to go. When it comes to online rowing you want everyone using the same software or your just going to find yourself rowing alone. The only thing that makes the online rowing fun is big numbers of people and there is a lot of people required to fill in different events in all 16 lanes in a 24 hour 7 days a week timetable.

[jag]

Good point. Since I've never used it, I really don't know why other people do use it. And the online rowing thing is probably a big part of its appeal.

Making deals between companies can be hard. Worth trying, sure.

[Carl Watts]

Good point. Since I've never used it, I really don't know why other people do use it. And the online rowing thing is probably a big part of its appeal.

Making deals between companies can be hard. Worth trying, sure.

Perhaps it can be an optional "Add in" to RowPro but use the existing RowPro structure.

Essentially its just a high end graphics option for RowPro. The point is that "Fixed scenery" no matter how interesting will become repetitive over time, the only thing that creates constant change is being able to see the other rowers your rowing with LIVE.

I did suggest to Pete a while ago that the digital rower needs more than a simple male or female option, it should also represent the age and possibly even the build and height of the rower. The reason for this is that older rowers in particular feel the need to tell everyone constantly why they are slower and this is obviously a BIG negative in them using it in the way they have to feel they need to justify themselves, this is WRONG if you want more people using the software. I notice the best they can currently do is add GREY HAIR !

There has already been years of development and an existing user base for RowPro so why try and re invent the wheel ?

[Carl Watts]

Perhaps I should have said "Plug in", thats typically the sort of thing a third party can bring to the table and also get paid for independent of the main software supplier.

You could choose to pay an additional fee for the virtual reality graphics for RowPro when your using it.

Then again if the RowPro graphics came up to the standard of the NetAthlon graphics you probably wouldn't need much more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbvbsEylbT0

The thing is I never hear of anyone complain about the graphics, but if your as old as me and used E-Row which was just a yellow boat shape on a blue background you wouldn't be complaining either !

[jan_zov]

Is a VR-headset or helmet needed to get the experience of VR-rowing?
That might be a problem for the rather active rower who sweats a lot ...

[kris-o]

RowPro is on the market since 2002 or something like that. When i initially came to rowing indoors, i embraced the idea of Rowing software with big expectations.
Immediately downloaded test version for Mac, then took my WIN PC from work and tried on this platform as well.
What struck me:
1. you need quite powerful machine to throw dated graphics with reasonable fps (i am not saying that superb graphics is a must for rowing online...)
2. user base is very small - have tried to set up a row but:
- most of the users are from different time zone
- most of the users from my time zone are not from my pace-zone, so i end up behind and my rowing is just "me against the empty lane" again (i know i can "see" them with some option but the same way i could setup many pace boats and look at them)
- users from my country - i have came across 2 maybe
3. the setup is bit messy - i would prefer iPad/iPhone application and BT connection to my PM5, to make it simple
4. RowPro is good for racing online, but it is very expensive for that purpose - if racing is your thing, maybe it would be enough to see "time/distance behind" in text view
5. RowPro does not export to popular fitness platforms - when rowing is not your only "thing" you normally have at least 1 or 2 accounts to track your activities - all of them most probably already synchronize by themselves and do provide good summary data and tools to analyse workouts

Following your "wheel analogy":
I think that RowPro is not a wheel that people want, so people want to build new wheel, because sometimes fixing something is far more complicated than building new. (not talking about finances and company negotiations).

I do not need RowPro, it is not for me, so i am hoping that someone will come up with solution that would suit my needs.
There is LiveRowing - ultra easy online rowing platform for IOS - have you tested it? is someone actually using it?

I would LOVE to have rowing ZWIFT with tons of users and vast options of exploration... You could pace people with their HR, instead of real Pace - that way, users with other rowing machines could also join and all of us would be able to row together - you are doing 1:50, i am doing 2:20 but we are in the same HR zone so we can enjoy our workout together. I know that HR is complicated thing and can vary but i do not have any better idea Maybe it could work

[Carl Watts]

Not sure when you last used RowPro but I have been using it now for 7 years and don't have the same experiences.

The issues with it are you need to be tech savvy with the PC to sort things and keep it cheap and at USD$99 for RowPro when its not on special for USD$75 for a lifetime licence you would hardly call that expensive. Yes you need to have a decent graphics card but it will run on a PC you can find in a garbage bin over here, people throw out Pentium 4's in the trash and its all you need. I run it on a Hp DC7100 on Windows 10, decent HD6670 graphics card and a SSD. Yes it helps if you can build your own PC, sort out hardware issues, connectivity issues and format and reinstall a OS all by yourself in terms of cost.

The biggest problem of coming up with yet another bit of rowing software is the market size. Your not coming up with a new OS for example that may be of appeal to everyone in the world, you coming up with something that clearly only appeals to a very small percentage of people that own or have access to a Concept 2 rower. Bringing out yet another product just fragments the tiny market and without lots of others to row with its a pointless bit of software. Like you said its no fun out there on your own.

Some of the things you mention are already in V4.3 and not activated or are coming in V5. In V4.3 there is a checkbox to see everyone's heartrate your rowing with, however at present it shows only yours. Personally I didn't ask RowPro for this feature but I did ask to be able to see everyones rating or spm and this got implemented. If you think seriously about the implications of displaying everyones HR, you can see there is going to be serious flaws in that plan and it wouldn't be a popular option.

RowPro is hardly ever used for online racing, its for online TRAINING. It allows you to clock up your meters each week without you getting bored out of your brain.

The biggest barrier to people not using it is not the functionality issues or the cost but the psychological issues, the main one being "I'm too slow" which translates into I don't want to come last or more importantly I cannot handle the possibility of coming last. People that can just do there own thing and choose a pace or target distance before the start and stick to it have no such issues. The end result is such a small group of dedicated users its just not funny.

The 19:30GMT row which time wise must suit a population of well over 100 Million people cannot fill 16 lanes so do you seriously think there is room in the market for another product ?

Perhaps more importantly would you even bother to waste your time developing one ?

RowPro is it, there isn't going to be anything else like it. Arguably everyone that likes an interactive software package already has it so the remaining market is next to zero. There is more of a chance of this evolving into something you want to use than someone coming up with something built from scratch that you and probably only you in the whole world wants to use.

My hope is that RowPro will hit critical mass in the not too distant future. The path to that has been the recent PM5 with Bluetooth and the ability to run RowPro as an App on the IOS or Android OS.

ZWIFT looks great but you would have to agree there are far more people who ride bikes in the world than there is people who own Ergs, also alot more people who like to ride competitively on bikes. The Erg is for training, the serious people who race are OTW and not on the Erg. Really we are lucky top have RowPro and its been down to a small group of fellow Kiwi's or there would be nothing.

[kris-o]

I respect your opinion of a hard RowPro user. But i seriously cannot find any use case for that application in my rowing.
I say "racing", you say "training". How do you define training? I define it as a piece of activity with specifed target and structure, aimed to provide result.
I cannot understand, how RowPro could bring benefit to such training with its online feature?
Lets say i plan my piece of 10k row - target pace around 2:20, HR not higher than 140. I set up a row and what do i write in Oarbits? 2:20/140 for 10k?
I would need userbase similar to Zwift, in order to find a reasonable set of partners for my effort.

Lets further analyse assuming i accept any training partner. What is the result? We start together and most of us row alone after 5 minutes max. What is the point of even loging online? And paying money for that?

Lets analyse even further - i am able to find partners wiling to do my pace - what is the benefit? Seeing figures on my PC for 45 minutes? First time it will be fun to check theirs stats and compare but then what? What do i do with these values?

Free market is regulating itself - we have big C2 forum - all of the users are dedicated enough to commit to some platform. How many of them use RowPro? There is the answer - it simply is addresing very specific user base.

I understand your point about fragmentation but you are overestimating loyalty - its not like you wouldnt jump ship to some other platform yourself, if it provided good coverage, right?

I could use RowPro if it had IOS app, tcx export and some idea to make online rowing work for my needs. And i just need to have some fun during endless hours of working out.

I think you didnt catch my point about HR - i would try to PACE people, basing on their HR - you go crazy fast but at 140BPM, i go slow with 138BPM - we can at least see each other
What would we do with that "visibility"? - no idea

[filetorish]

Really good discussion here. Thanks for the comments!

We have a long term vision at Cobalt to provide virtual reality experiences for more than rowing. We know we are starting out with a small market in rowing, but our goal for the next year is to blow the rowing community's collective mind. If we can prove out our product with a dedicated rowing fan base, we can easily scale to other exercise experiences like biking, elliptical (imagine cross country skiing), and even boxing (we could integrate with Hykso for punch data: https://www.hykso.com/).

We want to provide the best possible software experience for rowing. This means giving you mobile access to key fitness stats, the ability to race against others in a friendly environment, and remote classes that you can participate in from home (rowing is the new spinning).

We believe mobile VR headsets will gain mass appeal within the next couple years. The fact that you can clip your phone into a lightweight headset and experience a solid VR experience is so exciting. VR is way more immersive and engaging than a flat screen. Sweating is a challenge, but we believe we can solve this by shipping with waterproof padding (http://vrcover.com/product/samsung-gear ... r-version/) that folks seem to love.

If you use and love RowPro, that's awesome! As software geeks, we're happy you're using software to enhance your fitness experience. All we ask is that you give Cobalt a shot as well.

Thanks,
Rishi

[kris-o]

When will you be able to show some demo/working prototype?

Is the h/w part a must because of the processing power needed to shoot VR content?
Have you considered s/w approach with IOS app - new iPads seem to have a lot of power... Potential user base would skyrocket immediately.
Revenue is best from IOS, i think.

[filetorish]

Sorry - what do you mean by h/w versus s/w?