UT2/Polarization (trying to move this from PB thread)

[mdpfirrman]

I would hope you don't give it up Glenn. You are forgetting something too. Your 2K time did improve despite you getting sick for around 3 weeks when doing the last PP round. All I think Jack is saying is that there are those (even those up there in years) that are putting in the meters (along with the hard work) to get to where they want to be. The guy that is the top in most categories (and I don't want to mention his name but you can find him on the rankings) in my and your age group is a former European medalist at the Olympics. He's like 6'5" and is thin and lanky. His 2K and 5K as well as 10K times are just absurd. He looks to be a disciple of the Henry school not the Shawn school if I had to guess. Oh, his power numbers are pretty damn good too (on the 1K).

Perhaps for you Glenn, doing other things should be your UT2 work if long hours on the rower isn't for you. There are times I wonder if it's right for me. Jack, I'd love to do 10 or more hours of training a week. I'm not complaining about it personally. I'm just trying to find the time. My monthly numbers have gone up dramatically since August 2015. I'm striving to be more like Dean actually.

Glenn, another limitation for you and I (quite frankly) is height. You probably (though it would be painstaking) could probably drop to a lightweight. I probably could come close but at 5"10' it's harder to do. I was 160 lbs for many years in my 20's so I suppose it's doable (though I had a lot less muscle then). You have a lightweight frame which makes just getting close to under 7 that much more impressive. To be honest, I pull for guys like you, Mike Smith, Edward and Greg more. We are at a distinct disadvantage on the INDOOR rower. There's probably not a team boat though that wouldn't take Mike Smith over damn near any heavyweight OTW.

Ultimately you have to decide if a few more seconds is worth life in the slow lane to you. You're a go, go, go guy like Jim. Nothing wrong with that at all. It's all about better health for all of us anyway.

[G-dub]

Thanks Mike,I appreciate your thoughts. But what Jack is really saying is that unless we follow his beloved plan to the letter, we don't measure up to him and/or we really don't want it. And he has stuck me with that several times this past year. I think he stuck you as well just last week or so. Am I being a baby - you bet. But I get sick of the holier than thoughs that like to drop turds on an otherwise fun and meaningful exchange.

[Marsh_Creek_Sculler]

Kind comments Mike, thank you.

Glenn, definitely don't give up. Despite what you might hear on this board or elsewhere, this really isn't rocket science. Sometimes I think folks here are getting caught up in minute details which, at the level most guys are at here aren't really all that important. You haven't been at this erging thing all that long but you are doing pretty well and have made good progress so you should be happy about that. It's fine to listen to what other folks are saying but don't take it personally and I wouldn't engage in arguments here. It's not worth it.

I've been at this for a long time and the general approach to training hasn't changed that much in 20+ years. Lots of long mileage early in the season to build up a solid aerobic base (boring, but 100% necessary). Throw in a good AT workout once a week. As you progress towards racing season, the volume decreases but the intensity increases. Shorter pieces, higher ratings. One day of near race length and intensity. Steady state UT1/2 days between the hard workouts. That's the basics of it. I would encourage you to explore the OTW rowing websites for training ideas. On the USRowing site, Kris Korzenioski has a column on training with suggested workouts. Korzo has been a national team coach for a number of countries over the years and knows what he's talking about.

Also, I see from your profile that you live in Asheville. There is a rowing club in Asheville. Get off the erg on and on the water for a change of pace. Go bike riding instead of rowing on somedays. I love to use my road bike for those long aerobic base workouts and hammer it out on the trails on my mountain bike for some of those AT workouts.

At our age it's important have some fun with this. It's not worth getting stressed out over. Easy for me to say but you should see me in the weeks leading up to Masters Nationals or Head of the Charles...I'm a basket case!
Cheers,
MIke

[Bob S.]

@M--C--S: Great perspective, Mike! This thread needed that shot of common sense. If an erger gets too wrapped up in all this fine tuning, it is no longer fun and the motivation is shot.

Re OTW: For fun and exercise, OTW is really where it is at as far as rowing is concerned. Obviously, it is not available to many. I sure miss it. But neophytes have to recognize that it takes a lot of time and patience to get there. Sculling is tricky business and, for most it takes a lot of time in the heavy wherries to develop the initial skills needed to row a light shell with a minimum of swimming. Sweep-rowing has it own issues. A eight full of beginners never seems to set. Once you have a group of 4 or eight, who show up regularly and can keep a reasonable set, the real fun begins. For enjoyment, few things equal the feel of a well-set, well-coordinated eight when it all comes together and the boat sings.

[G-dub]

Thank you, Mike. Your post means a lot to me. I probably needed a Snickers bar this morning! And maybe a little cooling off period doing some other things for a bit.

PS - it sure would be nice to feel a great stroke on the water. I will take your suggestion. The Asheville group has a class over a few weeks in the spring. If nothing else, it will give me something fresh to obsess over!

[jackarabit]

What I didn't think to say:

1. Highest volume week I ever had on PPlan was 82k.

2. Given that I am relatively slow, I probably did put in 10 hrs. per week counting warmup and cooldown meters. This is a luxury that I have as a retiree. I most likely discount the difficulties of those with less free time.

3. Greg Smith said "Do the work and the results will follow." We sure all hope that means improved results but in my case I was thinkng that getting thru the minimum prescribed work was my goal. I got a bonus when I did see improvement. I don't doubt for a minute that improvement is more difficult for those who come to the training in a well-conditioned state and a few seconds from their 2k goal pace. I've said previously that I may have found PPlan palatable because i was building tolerance for a large volume of relatively little value--like swarfing down cheese puffs. Figuratively speaking, I'd guess that Glenn's efforts must have seemed like chewing gravel by comparison.

4. I owe a bit to Pete Plan in the way of keeping me interested and on the bleeding edge of the little victories possible for me personally. I see now that those who would win the game are impatient of formulas that merely keep them in the game. No standing in the right of way of that train!

[Bob S.]

@ Jack (I hope that the other devotees of this thread will pardon my brief diversion): Ack, Jack! What's with "The Case of the Missing PM?" That's my title for a virtual Victorian mystery thriller set at N. 10 Downing St. The US version would be entitled "Vhere Vas Vuz?"

As I say, please excuse my brief thread theft.

Bob S.

[T_M]

Hey GDub, I totally get where you're coming from. I used to post my workouts in a fair amount of detail. I would include my weight, sets and reps scheme along with my boring 30'r20 or 10Kr20-22 UT2-1 workouts. I received a few snide remarks from posters related to not performing to their expectations. I think I have Jamesg's attitude about rowing: a fair amount of volume, long full strokes basic UT level stuff will get you/keep you fit and "keep the pipes clean". I also agree with Henry and Greg (I think) about keeping it fun...where the best training is the type that we are likely to enjoy and keep doing. We're about the same age and I don't know about you, but I have a pretty full life with family, work and extracurricular/volunteer activities on Boards and clubs. I don't have the interest or motivation at this time to medal in a competition of any sort at the moment, but I am committed to my health and well being for quality of life and my obligations/commitment to others. One month I might churn out 200K+ meters, another month might be only 100K. I decided to keep my training journal in hard copy and eliminate the opportunity for others to impose their expectations on me. I suspect a guy with your history of training the accomplishments you achieved, "giving this up" may be more about realigning your training goals to health/fitness and fun versus competition? I hope that is the case. But I hope you don't leave the forum entirely as I enjoy your contributions.

Best,

Tom

[jackarabit]

Gosh in nebraskee, Bob, Vuz vas un oldt tread onst vich ich dachte neu. Kalte spur.

[gregsmith01748]

I've been watching all the messages whizz by on this thread and I'm struggling to keep up!

A couple observations:

- Totally agree with M-C-S...If you can possible find a way to try rowing on the water, and you have any interest at all, you owe it to yourself to give it a try. Not everyone will love it, some folks prefer the purity and simplicity of erging, and other sports. But, I fell instantly and complete in love with the sport.

On top of the same aerobic and fitness benefits you get from rowing indoors, you work on balance and coordination to master a very complex skill. I have heard the rowing stroke described as involving the same whole body coordination of a golf swing, but for a head race you have to seamlessly put together 700 perfect swings, while pointing your boat in the right direction, backwards, with your heart rate heading 95% of its maximum.

I've been rowing for 5 years now, and I have just reached the point where I feel competent, and it is thrilling to know that I will never stop learning and improving. The sport of rowing has changed my relationship with the rowing machine. It is now a means to an end, rather than an end of it's own. It also provides motivation to do workouts.

- Regarding balance...I can't speak to what it is like to be a guy like Jim, or Steve Roedde, or Mike Caviston. If I had a realistic chance to be the fastest guy in my age group. If I had the chance to set records. I think it would be different, but since my competition is really against my own expectations, I am just starting to "get over myself".

There is something very admirable about single minded pursuit of a self defined goal, but I think it has, for me, at times, lead to obsessive behavior. Training while I'm sick. Training instead of spending time with me family. Training instead of having some down time. I don't think it crosses this line very often, but my wife might have a different perspective.

I don't want to be one of those people who casually sets goals and then changes their mind, or makes excuses, but I also think that stopping, sitting back and doing a gut check about whether a particular goal is what you want to be doing, or if something else has become more important. I am really struggling with this one right now, because my job has gotten more time consuming, with more travel and more challenge. I think I need to reset my training expectations, and part of me feels like a quitter. I'm grown up enough to know that that is silly, but it still takes some mental effort to get past.

- Regarding flexibility....A couple of thoughts here. Deep in some of the stuff that Mike Caviston wrote, someone asked him about changes to the plan. I might be remembering wrong, but I think his answer was along the lines of ..."That might work, it might not. I wrote down exactly what worked for my team and for me. You can do something different and it might work, but it isn't the Wolverine Plan". Some people might read that as an admonition to follow his plan to the letter, I took it a different way. He didn't care how you trained, but don't do something different and then say it was the WP.

I think that all of the set plans have merits and disadvantages, and I think that over the first couple years that someone trains seriously, you owe it to yourself to give each one of them a real try. I think 16 weeks is probably a fair block of time to devote to it. I would include the Interactive plan, and Rojabo as well. If you can get your hands on it "Erg: 75 workouts for Athletes", is another great set of structured workouts. And when you do this, follow the plan to the letter. See exactly how your body responds, and how much progress you make. This essentially compels you to keep reasonably good records.

If you do this with 4 to 6 different plans, you've just earned a personal masters degree in individual exercise physiology! Now it is up to you. See what worked, see what didn't, try to figure out (like Jim does) what works for you and what maximizes both the physical and phsycic benefit of exercise for you. You are now "beyond" set programmes, you are a master of your domain!

- Regarding Seiler....Brilliant guy. He's written a lot of papers. I suggest you read them and watch his lectures instead of listening to me or other folks quoting him. I have seen references to his work saying that he found a "compelling advantage" to an approach, but the source paper actually shows a slight but statistically insignificant difference between approaches. Every author (including me) has an axe to grind, and will try to squish available evidence to support their viewpoint. The most influential thing I've seen by seiler is the lecture about individual variation in response to different modes of training.

https://quantifiedrowing.wordpress.com/ ... en-seiler/

His main point was that the variation of response within each group of athletes participating in a big trial of different ways to do polarized training was far bigger than the difference between groups. While it was true that mean improvement for the block periodization group was bigger than that of the hybrid group, some athletes did much better the way around. After watching that lecture, it makes me a bit grumpy to see people making very specific pronouncements about the superiority of 8 minute intervals compared to all others based on seiler's work.

Sorry for the long winded post. This topic has gone in so many directions, it's been tough to process.

[Cyclingman1]

I fear that I may have some small bearing on some of the distress being voiced in these parts.

I'm a skeptic, doubter, debunker, etc. When someone lays out a training plan, I don't immediately believe. In fact, what I immediately do is process it next to my own experiences, knowledge, capabilities, and the like. I'm sure that comes across. I'm really not trying undermine other peoples' training. However, I do sometimes notice some disconnect between what people want to accomplish and what they are accomplishing. So I might throw in my 2 cents in. I probably should not be doing that. But Greg is very correct: I would say any plan needs some adjustment to fit any one person. Everyone needs a little perspective. Don't let all of this plan stuff and performance data drag you down.

As far as me personally, someone mentioned that I fall into the "gung ho" category. Not really. I don't even follow a training plan. I more or less literally do what comes to mind when I go into the basement to erg. I might think 250m intervals at 8AM and actually do a 5K at 9AM. I have weeks where I don't even do 10K. I do go in cycles. I might go a couple of weeks where I row almost everything ferociously. It's kind of the same mentality I had when every bike ride was a time trial. However, having said all of that, I am aware of training principles and physiology. Somewhere there is method to my madness.

Secondly, Greg, thanks for the compliment and the association with some C2 record holders, but, as someone pointed out, I'm fully aware that my rowing times are compared with the Silver Sneaker crowd. There are some pretty darn good 60+ rowers out there. Oesterling, Krum, Brewer, Steventon, O'Toole, & Crawford come to mind. They will easily surpass my times down the road.

Regarding OTW rowing. I tried it. Didn't fall in love with it. Too many hassles, not to mention one has to be comfortable pitching into a lake a couple of miles from the dock. And it is not easy. I also think that my rowing club was very mediocre.

[bisqeet]

I'm going to be trying some otw this year. In fact the local club will be starting on the 16. This month. Eldest daughter is coming too (I'm making her - too much Internet )
Looking forward to trying some sculling.
The club is only small and not or less just a hobby. But I just want to try. Not sure if they habe singles but I did see an 8 on the home page

[jackarabit]

Crew certainly demands the harnessing of personal aspiration to a corporate purpose--a cat herding endeavor to be sure. "Under discipline" as the British army used to say. Sculling is to erging what flying is to standing on one leg on a straight chair until you get dizzy. Both are pursued in an environment of logistical complication, expense, and dangerously polluted water. When did that ever stop anyone?