New Rower, runner...

[LarryRow]

Should I have said anything to the guy next to me who did ten minutes at 3:30 to 4:15 and gave up? I think the erg machine must be the most hated machine in gym, or the least understood machine.

Never offer advice at a gym. Unsolicited advice is rarely appreciated. Least understood? Very likely.

Oh no, I would never offer advice, I was just kidding. Still, it's hard not to watch what other people do on the machines. There is the up and over the knees with every stroke, the excessive lean back, the stationary pull with all your might, and the twirling one armed row while passing the handle back and forth like a baton, to name a few of the techniques I've seen in the gym. I may not know what I'm supposed to be doing but I'm building up a list of things I shouldn't be doing.

Thanks for that advice to have the handle keep up with my hips. I will watch for that during my workouts.

[Eric308]

2:50 for 500m for a 6'2", 180lb, 51 male is just not right. That is old lady time.

The most obvious thing is that you are using no force with your legs when you push off from the catch. You must be doing all arms. I say stare at the PM with time per 500m on the screen. Experiment with each stroke. What makes you go faster? The basic stroke is lean forward at the catch, push off hard with the legs, keeping the arms virtually straight. Once the legs are nearly extended, rotate back to the rear and pull hands to sternum. Recover by quickly pushing arms forward, rotate back forward, then compress legs.

There is just no way that you would not be below 2:00 for 500m.

"Old lady time"?! 81 year old Gillian Burrell of the UK would take offense as she just pulled a 10:28.3 (2:37.0 splits) recently.

[LarryRow]

"Old lady time"?! 81 year old Gillian Burrell of the UK would take offense as she just pulled a 10:28.3 (2:37.0 splits) recently.

True enough! Have the rowers worked up a measure of age-graded performance? Runners figured out a long time ago that they had to come up with something to motivate older competitors or the twenty five year olds would get all the glory and everyone else would have to go home.

I would love to know the age graded percentage for a certain distance and time. A hundred percent is the world record for that age group. Gillian must be rowing at ninety percent+, meaning she beats over ninety percent of the rowers in her age group.

[Cyclingman1]

go to nonathlon.com. That is a very sophisticated ranking or rowers taking into account age, weight, gender and spread across 10 standard distances. It's not perfect, but until someone comes up with something better, it is a good take on relative performance. Join up and see how you stack up.

BTW, the old lady comment was pretty accurate. I now see 500m times far faster. It seems to take a while to learn to put some muscle into rowing as opposed to aimlessly sliding up and down the carriage.

[jackarabit]

I gotta get me a t-shirt that says "Row like an octagenarian!" I already have the one that says "Row like a nonagenarian!"

I'd like to have one that says "Row like a sexagenarian!" but I'm still chasing the 2k time posted in the signature of a septuagenarian member of this forum. Objective measures of peer performance are a hard school for roughly 80%'of the members of any age class and that includes the 20 yr. olds. Get your technique sorted, row for fitness, measure your improvement as a peer group ranking or just by how you feel.

Larry, self image benefits from calibration. In the short view, pushing your buttons may feel like a bucket of ice water. Encouragement and useful advice will follow.

[LarryRow]

Get your technique sorted, row for fitness, measure your improvement as a peer group ranking or just by how you feel.

Larry, self image benefits from calibration. In the short view, pushing your buttons may feel like a bucket of ice water. Encouragement and useful advice will follow.

I've learned a lot already just from the posts on this thread on how to improve my technique. I agree with rowing for fitness and measuring my improvement by how I feel.

I rowed five times this week. My left Achilles hurts so I took yesterday off. It was also bothering me when I was running. I wonder if I'm trying to push my shins more than vertical on the return to the catch. Funny, it didn't bother me much when rowing but was hurting a lot yesterday just walking around.

[Bob S.]

I gotta get me a t-shirt that says "Row like an octagenarian!" I already have the one that says "Row like a nonagenarian!"

My old ones used to say "Pushing (various ages) is exercise enough." That was plagiarized long ago from the creator of the cartoon "Crankshaft." My current one says "Hitting 90 yrs. was exercise enough."

[LarryRow]

I gotta get me a t-shirt that says "Row like an octagenarian!" I already have the one that says "Row like a nonagenarian!"

My old ones used to say "Pushing (various ages) is exercise enough." That was plagiarized long ago from the creator of the cartoon "Crankshaft." My current one says "Hitting 90 yrs. was exercise enough."

You're 90? I am impressed.

[left coaster]

As a runner, you probably have the leg strength to have a strong start on the drive. But be absolutely sure that the handle is keeping up with your hips. Otherwise, you end up "shooting the slide" which results in losing a lot of that important leg power. Arm strength does not not come into play in that problem, it is a matter of allowing your body to swing a bit more forward at the start of the drive. The Brits call it "bum-shooting," which has nothing to do with marksmanship.

This is an excellent point Bob -- Larry, have you considered this? It makes a lot of sense if your legs are stronger than upper body. I recently posted in the health and fitness section about my experiences with lat activation in the first 1/3 of the drive, they really start to light up now after a few months on the erg. Arms stay straight during this part of the drive, but your back is a big player (or so I've come to believe, many experts here). You need to have lats engaged for the handle to keep pace with your hips in the first part of the drive. Shoulders also need to be in a lower, neutral position.

[LarryRow]

As a runner, you probably have the leg strength to have a strong start on the drive. But be absolutely sure that the handle is keeping up with your hips. Otherwise, you end up "shooting the slide" which results in losing a lot of that important leg power. Arm strength does not not come into play in that problem, it is a matter of allowing your body to swing a bit more forward at the start of the drive. The Brits call it "bum-shooting," which has nothing to do with marksmanship.

This is an excellent point Bob -- Larry, have you considered this? It makes a lot of sense if your legs are stronger than upper body. I recently posted in the health and fitness section about my experiences with lat activation in the first 1/3 of the drive, they really start to light up now after a few months on the erg. Arms stay straight during this part of the drive, but your back is a big player (or so I've come to believe, many experts here). You need to have lats engaged for the handle to keep pace with your hips in the first part of the drive. Shoulders also need to be in a lower, neutral position.

Thanks, I'll pay particular attention to the position of the handle during the first part of the stroke. My legs are definitely stronger than the upper part of my body, that's one of the reasons I've started rowing, to try to increase my upper body strength.

I've read that putting the foot position in 1 on the Concept 2 will decrease the strain on my Achilles. I'll try that today.

[Bob S.]

I've read that putting the foot position in 1 on the Concept 2 will decrease the strain on my Achilles. I'll try that today.

Note that it is not necessary to start the drive with your heels against the footboards. If you are flexible enough to do it, OK. If not, lift your heels enough to be comfortable and start the drive from the ball of the foot.

The C2 recommended position for the footboards is such that the strap goes over the ball of the foot. Another general rule is the lower the better, depending on your own dimensions. My own interpretation of all that is have the strap at the ball of the foot and, if you need to decide between between a couple of different sets of holes, use the lower of the 2.

[LarryRow]

I've read that putting the foot position in 1 on the Concept 2 will decrease the strain on my Achilles. I'll try that today.

Note that it is not necessary to start the drive with your heels against the footboards. If you are flexible enough to do it, OK. If not, lift your heels enough to be comfortable and start the drive from the ball of the foot.

The C2 recommended position for the footboards is such that the strap goes over the ball of the foot. Another general rule is the lower the better, depending on your own dimensions. My own interpretation of all that is have the strap at the ball of the foot and, if you need to decide between between a couple of different sets of holes, use the lower of the 2.

Great advice, Bob, thanks! It is much easier on my Achilles to push off the drive from the ball of my foot. Lowering the foot position to 1 also helped a lot, I think the plastic insert has a 0 position but that felt too low to me.

Aiming for a 2:30 500m@20 spm for 30 minutes is a whole new ball game! I'm not that far off, maybe around 2:38@18-22spm. I see that I have to generate far more power per stroke, and that I have a lot more recovery time than in my 26 spm sessions, LOL.
I'll keep at it for the next month to see if it becomes easy for me. I like rowing strapless, it really forces you to stop at the end of the stroke.

A woman tried the rowing machine next to me. It was five minutes of vigorous up and over the knee movements and then she abandoned. No, I did not say anything. I don't want to encourage anybody to use the two rowing machines, haha.

[LarryRow]

Ok, I've put in 156,999 meters, most of it after I posted on here a few months ago. I've struggled some with achilles pain so I haven't been able to row as much as I would have liked.

So, I'm up to 7,000 meter sessions, 20-22/SPM, at about 2:30 pace, last session was 2:26.4, strapless. These sessions are about 34 minutes long. I think I'm getting the form down.

Where do I go from here? What should be my next goal? Do I switch to using the straps and try to increase my power? I'm a little worried that the straps will put a lot more stress on my achilles.

Thoughts welcome.

[aussieluke]

The straps shouldn't make any difference and there is no real need to use them if you plan to stick to low rate 18-22spm work. You can always have the straps on very loose (like not even touching your feet) so you don't rely on them but they're there if you NEED them (ie are about to fall off the seat)

Have you tried altering the height of the flexfoot to see if it has any difference on your ankle? You could also try shoes with heels to see if that helps (dress shoes, work boots, weightlifting shoes)

I personally have had a lot of success following the Pete Beginner Plan, but doing all the distance rows at 20spm (and free rating the interval sessions)

[LarryRow]

The straps shouldn't make any difference and there is no real need to use them if you plan to stick to low rate 18-22spm work. You can always have the straps on very loose (like not even touching your feet) so you don't rely on them but they're there if you NEED them (ie are about to fall off the seat)

Have you tried altering the height of the flexfoot to see if it has any difference on your ankle? You could also try shoes with heels to see if that helps (dress shoes, work boots, weightlifting shoes)

I personally have had a lot of success following the Pete Beginner Plan, but doing all the distance rows at 20spm (and free rating the interval sessions)

Ah, thanks for that suggestion to find shoes with higher heels to lessen the tension on my ankle! My running shoes are too flat. I believe I have a pair of weightlifting shoes.

I have the flexfoot at 1. I have tried other settings and 1 seems to put the least amount of strain on my achilles. 0 seems to be going too far.

I will look into Pete's plan. I'm playing it by ear and not necessarily rowing every day, mainly because of some soreness in my arms and worry about further injuring my achilles.

I'm happy to report that the hamstring pain I had from running, pain that had been nagging me for years, has disappeared. Now, I just need to get my achilles to heal.