New Requirements For Ranking Pieces

[[old] slo_boat]

<!--QuoteBegin-monkey+May 16 2005, 01:57 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(monkey @ May 16 2005, 01:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dadams+May 15 2005, 11:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ May 15 2005, 11:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+May 15 2005, 02:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ May 15 2005, 02:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Bill found a "public erg", whatever that is, for Dwayne Adams, but that doesn't mean he is going to be able to do it for everyone else.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />He didn't find me a erg. I told him where one was available. He simply called the facility to comfirm that the erg was indeed public, and in working order. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, but by doing that the new rules are already favouring top ranking verifications towards rowers in the US.<br />Bill couldn't possibly do that with facilities all over the world. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Try <a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp</a>

[[old] Canoeist]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+May 16 2005, 02:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ May 16 2005, 02:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So if a witness is not valid, and a commercial gym is not valid, what is your suggestion -- to leave the rankings as they were? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes. I have been told many times "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" As far as I know, the rankings "ain't broke".<br /><br />I was just looking at the HM rankings. Ten of the fifty entries on the first page (once Frank enters his time) are RowPro entries. That is 20%. Not only do I know that they are valid, but I can download them for a private race.<br /><br />The box is NOT big enough to verify a RowPro time. "RowPro_V" will not fit. Now how will we know when a RowPro time IS verified? Also, where can we find a gym that has RowPro? I wouldn't want to row a top 3 time and not have it available for others to download.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Paul Flack

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try <a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp</a> </td></tr></table> <br /><br />That's a good suggestion. However, when I tried for my city (East Lansing, Michigan) I found two places. Neither is a public place. They cost money, and especially the second one listed is very pricey. I'm flogging a dead horse here. It has already been pointed out by many others that there are few, if any, free public places to do your event.<br /><br />Byron

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Canoeist+May 16 2005, 07:54 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Canoeist @ May 16 2005, 07:54 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes.  I have been told many times "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"  As far as I know, the rankings "ain't broke".<br /> </td></tr></table><br />At least they weren't broke till last week. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was just looking at the HM rankings.  Ten of the fifty entries on the first page (once Frank enters his time) are RowPro entries.  That is 20%.  Not only do I know that they are valid, but I can download them for a private race.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />What about the other 80%, just delete them? How do you KNOW the RowPro entries are valid, and that they weren't rowed by someone else?<br /><br />It would be possible to put RP-V, or ER-V (erow) in the Source column.

[[old] John Rupp]

Byron,<br /><br />I called the only gym listed in the rowfinder for this area.<br /><br />They do indeed have a rowing machine, with another on order.<br /><br />It is nice to know I will be able to visit this gym and use their Nautilus rowing machines for the rankings, now that they have been approved by C2.

[[old] andyArvid]

<!--QuoteBegin-Byron Drachman+May 16 2005, 12:45 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Byron Drachman @ May 16 2005, 12:45 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try <a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp</a> </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's a good suggestion. However, when I tried for my city (East Lansing, Michigan) I found two places. Neither is a public place. They cost money, and especially the second one listed is very pricey. I'm flogging a dead horse here. It has already been pointed out by many others that there are few, if any, free public places to do your event.<br /><br />Byron <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Byron,<br /><br />A mathematician like you should be more resourceful. Check out the MSU crew. They should have well-functioning ergs. I am sure they would gladly give you the opportunity to set a PB in exchange for some expert tutoring or maybe for a ride in the Irish Mail. <br /><br />andy

[[old] monkey]

<!--QuoteBegin-slo_boat+May 16 2005, 03:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(slo_boat @ May 16 2005, 03:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-monkey+May 16 2005, 01:57 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(monkey @ May 16 2005, 01:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dadams+May 15 2005, 11:40 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ May 15 2005, 11:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+May 15 2005, 02:28 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ May 15 2005, 02:28 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Bill found a "public erg", whatever that is, for Dwayne Adams, but that doesn't mean he is going to be able to do it for everyone else.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />He didn't find me a erg. I told him where one was available. He simply called the facility to comfirm that the erg was indeed public, and in working order. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, but by doing that the new rules are already favouring top ranking verifications towards rowers in the US.<br />Bill couldn't possibly do that with facilities all over the world. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Try <a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/rower/rowerfinder.asp</a> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well according to that there's just one place in the whole of Great Britain that has public ergs, and they're 140 miles from me!<br /><br />You missed the point, the point I was making is that C2 rang the gym concerned to confirm that it was a public facility with public ergs, presumably part of the verification procedure (if it isn't, why contact it) and that this couldn't be done everywhere in the world.<br />

[[old] FrankJ]

Today I spoke to Bill Patton at Concept 2 via phone and he convinced me to at least give his new plan a try. I have at least 3 months to research the feasibility of using a "public C2" for a marathon or HM attempt. Assuming I can find such a machine my first attempt would likely be an HM as marathons are too much effort to waste on an attempt that make not work well.<br /><br />Concept 2 has been put in the position of being the de facto governing body of the indoor rowing sport. Perhaps if there was a real governing body for the sport we could remove this burden from Concept 2. A formal body could then decide the rules used for ranking and have them approved by a vote of the membership. Then you wouldn't feel like the rules were being dictated by someone at C2.<br /><br />Frank<br /><br />Xeno for Pres!

[[old] michaelb]

Although I will never be top 3 in anything, I think this is a terrible development. It clearly suggests that C2 has no interest in listening the feedback of users of this forum. I can't recall any users in this thread really supporting the restrictions imposed by C2. I can understand verification for world records, but for seasonal rankings, this seems like total overkill.<br /><br />Also, for reasons that I cannot understand, C2 has abandoned online rowing with erow, abandoned plans to support online rowing with the PM3, and now denied the ability to race online validly with rowpro. Seems like a significant mistake to me. While few people are interested in rowing as a sport, almost everyone I tell thinks the idea of rowing against people from around the world online sounds cool.

[[old] John Rupp]

1) The membership as a whole should be at the forefront of any changes to the rules;<br /><br />2) Rules should be determined and approved by a consensus of the membership;<br /><br />3) Rules should not be dictated by C2 or any other isolated segment of the sport;<br /><br />4) C2 should immediately remove itself from dictating the rules and, instead, gather feedback and allow the rules to be determined by consensus of the membership.

[[old] jetwbt]

<!--QuoteBegin-seat5+May 6 2005, 03:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5 @ May 6 2005, 03:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I was ranked in the top 3 in 5 events in the 2005 season. Therefore, if I row any of them faster than last year, I won't be able to rank them unless I find some place to row them in public after announcing my intentions and doing it in front of witnesses. 3 out of 5 of those events were rowed after midnight in my living room and until about 10 minutes before them I had no idea what piece I was even going to row. I went on the rankings, looked at what I would have to do to move up, and decided to give it a go, spur of the moment.  The other two, HM and Marathon, were rowed in the afternoon, also at home.  Those events would be especially hard to do at a health club since they take so long.<br /><br />I bought my machine after considering joining a local health club because I wanted to row when I could fit it in my schedule and because I can't afford to pay for a health club membership month after month.  Nor do I have time to work out when the clubs are open (early morning being not good at all since it's too risky for my back).  <br /><br />If you don't belong to a club, you can't just waltz in and use their equipment.  <br /><br />I would be willing to upgrade my monitor to the PM3, which records your achievements quite accurately, if C2 would consider that as proof of your rowing the piece.  I don't really want to spend $180, but at least that is for equipment I would have and use for years, unlike club membership which just keeps on costing you money. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I too had 5 top 3 rankings last season. I agree with seat5 on this. The PM3 is a miniature electronic witness. Either using the RowPro software or submitting the log cards to C2 for verification should count as methods of certifying a record row. My rows have been at either 5:30 in the morning on weekdays or whenever my 17 month old son goes down for a nap on weekends. I love the convenience of rowing at home, and with the chaos that a toddler brings to a house, prior notification is almost impossible and the health clubs around here do not maintain their machines well at all.<br /><br />

[[old] NavigationHazard]

At least as of 8:08 server time on 5/17, Mohammed Salem of Egypt is back atop the challenge board, averaging more than 50 k/ day.<br /><br />

[[old] Coach Gus]

Since it doesn't appear C2 is paying much attention to the many participants/users who object to the change in ranking requirements, perhaps a more formal protest is warranted.<br /><br />What if everyone who objects to the change contacts Bill at C2 notifying him prior to EVERY workout that you're going to try for a top 3 ranking. Perhaps the many messages he has to go through will cause C2 to reconsider this unpopular change. <br /><br />His email address is billp@concept2.com. <br /><br />Bill,<br /><br />I am going to try for a top 3 ranking in my workout session. Should I manage to do so, I will contact you again after I complete my workout. <br /><br />By the way, I respectfully request C2 return to the rules that were in place last year regarding how we rank our times/distances. Thank you.<br /><br />

[[old] maf]

Hi.<br /><br />I've been biting my tounge on this one, and I've decided I have to comment.<br /><br />What's the point in only regulating the top 3?<br /><br />If we think that the top 3 are cheating, why on earth would the rest be honest?<br /><br />Frankly, I like to believe that no-one is cheating, and we aren't playing for money, we're playing for motivation. So I am very happy with the old system. If someone is cheating, they will eventually get found out, and in any case, the only person they are fooling is themselves.<br /><br />Why not have the validation as an extra field, and a rule that says if you are in the top 3, the highest validated score is the 'official' fastest time, and it is rankable for world record status whilst the un-validated times are not, even if they are faster.<br /><br />Once you require a public erg, you need an erg validation scheme where someone regularly checks and services the erg to make sure it's up to spec, lubricated, and is sitting on a level floor etc. It would be useful to record details of elevation above sea level and climate as well.<br /><br />Not what I'm here for...<br /><br />Michael<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-maf+May 18 2005, 05:01 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(maf @ May 18 2005, 05:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If we think that the top 3 are cheating, why on earth would the rest be honest?<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary<br /><br />Main Entry: cheat <br />1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud<br />2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice<br />3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death><br /><br />intransitive senses<br />1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)<br />2 : to be sexually unfaithful -- usually used with on<br />- cheat·er noun<br /><br />synonyms CHEAT, COZEN, DEFRAUD, SWINDLE mean to get something by dishonesty or deception. CHEAT suggests using trickery that escapes observation <cheated me out of a dollar>. COZEN implies artful persuading or flattering to attain a thing or a purpose <always able to cozen her grandfather out of a few dollars>. DEFRAUD stresses depriving one of his or her rights and usually connotes deliberate perversion of the truth <defrauded of her inheritance by an unscrupulous lawyer>. SWINDLE implies large-scale cheating by misrepresentation or abuse of confidence <br /><br />The new rules do not define "public erg" but, rather, leave such definition at the whim of C2. Were this term defined, it might be possible for the rest of us to organize, qualify for, and attain this status of "public erg". However, as is, the terminology is ambigious and simply means "those seen fit to qualify, to the exclusion of all others, as seen to by the undefined determination and momentary whim of C2".<br /><br />Fortunately, C2 is not in charge of the "rules" for the Olympics and World Championships.<br />