New Requirements For Ranking Pieces

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » May 10th, 2005, 9:05 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ May 10 2005, 03:21 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Dwayne,<br /><br />Can you elaborate on how you got your piece verified, and so quickly.<br /><br />Also, how did you find a public machine.<br /><br />Nice time -- 1:14.5. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />John,<br />I went to the gym that I normally do, asked my wife and one of the trainers to watch me do the piece, and then emailed Bill the details. Bingo-bango....done.<br /><br />Dwayne<br /><br />P.S. I want to add that Bill did call the gym to verify that the row had been made, and that the machine is in working order.

[old] whp4 · Post by **[old] whp4** » May 10th, 2005, 9:28 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ehagberg @ May 10 2005, 09:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(whp4 @ May 10 2005, 04:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I'm a little dubious that there are rowers out there who can drop from 180 to 165 to make weight the night before, bulk back up over night and row more effectively than if they'd just managed to get their usual weight down to 165. 168-170 to 165, I can believe. Exactly which 15 lbs do those 180 lb rowers lose to make weight? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I often witnessed people who normally weighed about 175 drop to 160 for weigh-in the night before a race. It's water weight. There are a number of ways to dehydrate - most of which aren't very healthy - but I myself routinely dropped 7 or 8 pounds of water weight in a couple hours in the steam room (steam for 5-10 minutes, lukewarm shower, weigh self, repeat as needed...) prior to weigh-in in order to help get the boat average down so the heavier guys could just eek in under the max weight.<br /><br />Those who needed to drop 15 pounds needed to take more extreme measures.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Yes, I should think so - given that the normal blood volume of a 70 kg individual is around 4.7-5 liters, about 2.2 lbs/liter assuming blood weighs about the same/volume as water, we're talking about a fluid loss comparable to total exsanguination!<br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I, however, think its fine to weigh in an hour or two before an event and then be allowed to weigh whatever one desires during the event and immediately after. If someone has totally dehydrated shortly before an event, they'll likely hurt their performance, whereas those who don't need to drop more than a few pounds of water (or none) beforehand will be just fine. Having a post-event weigh-in isn't necessary IMO, as the negative impact of excessive dehydration will limit how agressively it is done... and if not it will limit the performance of the rower because they were really too heavy to begin with and dropped too much weight. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Yes, that was the point I was (imperfectly) trying to make. Did those guys who dropped 15 lbs for the weigh-in row appreciably better than the guys who weighed 165 without extreme measures? I know their performance would suffer enormously if they rowed at the weigh-in weight; what I don't know is how much their performance suffered after they refueled for the race. Any guesses?<br /><br />Bill

[old] whp4 · Post by **[old] whp4** » May 10th, 2005, 9:33 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ May 11 2005, 01:05 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>P.S. I want to add that Bill did call the gym to verify that the row had been made, and that the machine is in working order. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />You didn't bend the frame even a little? <br /><br />

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » May 10th, 2005, 10:06 pm

Dwayne,<br /><br />Thanks for clarifying.<br /><br />Now I am curious though, if this was a public accessible machine. Could anyone just walk in and use the machine you rowed on with no charge? <br /><br />For example people around here are often invited to try my rowing machine, and I don't charge them anything for that. Also I have 2 machines (more than most gyms) and I'd be very happy to help arrange some time trials, again with no charge. Can people use the machines in that gym the same way with no charge?<br /><br />Or..... is my machine more publically accessible than that one?<br /><br />I am willing to bet that my garage, with TWO rowing machines, is more accessible AND better equipped than the majority of fitness centers and gymnasiums. As a matter of record, none of the gyms in this area, and there are quite a number of them, have even ONE C2 rowing machine.

[old] ehagberg · Post by **[old] ehagberg** » May 11th, 2005, 8:26 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ May 6 2005, 10:41 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I realize that suspicious entries are made from time to time, for example Dwayne currently being surpassed in the total meters category by a 16 year old from Cairo (400,000 meters to date--come on!) but these things are quickly dispensed with right? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Here's what he answered when I asked him how he's doing so many meters:<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> i row about 100,000 meters per day in water.<br /><br /> i'm an egyptian national champion in the 4- in 2005 and i won silver in the 8+ in 2005 too.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Impressive, eh?<br /><br />I told him I think he's got his calculations wrong and I'm waiting to hear back.<br /><br />Maybe he's doing the 100k per day on water in a motorboat?

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » May 11th, 2005, 9:40 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ May 11 2005, 01:05 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Bill did call the gym .....the machine is in working order. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Bill called the gym to make sure that he didn't have to send out a repair crew because someone deliberately tried to break the equipment!<br /><br />Great time Dwayne!<br /><br />Paul Flack<br />

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » May 11th, 2005, 10:00 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(whp4 @ May 10 2005, 08:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>... have a ranking on a watts/kg basis in place of a lightweight category. <br /><br />Bill <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The records might be dominated by 25Kg hyperactive eight year olds!<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Paul Flack

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » May 11th, 2005, 10:04 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Dickie @ May 10 2005, 06:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(scout @ May 10 2005, 01:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Well, here's my two cents...<br /><br /><br />Just out of curiosity - if this hasn't been answered already- what inspired the change in policy?<br /><br />Thanks,<br /><br />Kate Benson<br />Camas, WA <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'd also like to know, Why the change? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Add me in. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!<br /><br />Paul Flack

[old] michael · Post by **[old] michael** » May 11th, 2005, 11:43 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ehagberg @ May 11 2005, 07:26 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ May 6 2005, 10:41 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I realize that suspicious entries are made from time to time, for example Dwayne currently being surpassed in the total meters category by a 16 year old from Cairo (400,000 meters to date--come on!) but these things are quickly dispensed with right? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Here's what he answered when I asked him how he's doing so many meters:<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> i row about 100,000 meters per day in water.<br /><br /> i'm an egyptian national champion in the 4- in 2005 and i won silver in the 8+ in 2005 too.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Impressive, eh?<br /><br />I told him I think he's got his calculations wrong and I'm waiting to hear back.<br /><br />Maybe he's doing the 100k per day on water in a motorboat? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And now he's being suddenly surpassed by a 17 year old (also from Cairo, Egypt) showing up from nowhere with 1.1 million meters and on pace to row around the globe in a single rowing season! What the heck's going on here?? I get it--it's the manifestation of a curse for performing CT scans to reveal the facial details of Tutankhaman...<br /><br /><a href='http://www.concept2.com/sranking03/chal ... aily=10000' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/sranking03/chal ... 000</a><br />

[old] whp4 · Post by **[old] whp4** » May 11th, 2005, 12:02 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Canoeist @ May 11 2005, 02:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(whp4 @ May 10 2005, 08:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>... have a ranking on a watts/kg basis in place of a lightweight category. <br /><br />Bill <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />The records might be dominated by 25Kg hyperactive eight year olds! <br /> </td></tr></table><br />It's all part of my insidious 5 year plan - my 2 year old is already a bundle of energy, on the short and light side, and he likes playing on the erg

[old] runningun · Post by **[old] runningun** » May 11th, 2005, 12:10 pm

If nothing else, this topic has some GREAT humor in it! Saturday Night Live stuff, only better because the context is so familiar!!<br /><br />I strongly support the direction C2 is going with this, although several people I respect and have rowed with online disagree, and I realize there are some problems to be worked out.<br /><br />1. THE RANKINGS HAVE A FORMAL COMPONENT TO THEM AT THE VERY TOP. As the sport gets more popular, the nature of its competitions and records is going to change. This has happened in other sports. The truly informal rankings blend at the top into some really competitive "best in the world" and "world record" times. I want to KNOW that the "best in world" times are for real. I've seen a number that I knew in my gut were wrong (and C2 generally cleared them up), so I like the idea of requiring SOME verification before publication. One point: I assume we're talking about the top three in each sub-category that C2 already maintains (e.g., age group, sex, weight) but not more than that (e.g., NOT country, city, or other).<br /><br />2. THERE MAY BE OTHER/BETTER WAYS TO VERIFY. Although I don't buy the arguement that one might just dust of a top-3 time on a whim and I think an athlete should be able to perform elsewhere than in his own home, it does seem that many good times will be lost, if there is a requirement to go to a public place. Since these top-3 times will be so rare, some other "verification" options should be possible. For example, a top C2 rower is going to have a significant, mag-card record of (a) workouts and (b ) times at various distances (I can't conceive of a top-3 1k or 2k rower having NEVER rowed a 5k or 10k in anger). And since there is a clear relationship in pace across all distances (for the same rower-- 1k pace is about 9 sec slower than 500 pace; 2k pace about 4 sec slower than 1k pace, etc.), maybe C2 could accept a combination of (a) "logcard" proof together with (b ) online participation in RowPro or eRow. (At one point I sent my log card to C2 --they needed "full" logcards to test)--, so I know that's possible.)<br /><br />3. THERE ARE CHEATERS OUT THERE. For those of use who don't cheat, it's hard to believe others do. Who knows why? But they do, and the more visible and important the event, they more they'll try to cheat. Since I don't cheat, it really pisses me off to see that someone else has gotten ahead by cheating ON me. Sorry, I'm just not a big enough man to be happy to know "in my heart" that I'm better... I want it out there in public; I want to be protected from cheaters so that I don't have to deal with it at all!!<br /><br />4. TOP PEFFORMANCE IS JUST THAT: A PERFORMANCE. My son is a high school runner, but he has to perform AT A MEET to set a record--it can't be in a practice run or an intramural meet. I can't think of any sport where an athlete can set a record privately (... let's assume it's not cheating, it's a real record performance...) and have it count for anything. That the C2 rankings have allowed very loose verification is just a relic of the informal PAST nature of the rankings. It's fine for a friendly list (which is what 98% of the rankings are), but it's not an acceptable system if the top spots are really to be viewed as "best in world" or "world record", even for sub-groups by age, weight, and sex.<br /><br />5. LET's HELP C2, NOT GET ANGRY AT THEM!! C2 has generated and maintains the rankings, tries to keep them clean, etc., and has apparently decided to deal with a problem, so let's HELP them, not get angry!!! They don't need to make rules to sell ergometers! Several people have commented "why now?" I'm a little curious too about what particular straw broke the camel's back, but what difference does it make really? Many of us have seen bogus info, C2 must have seen 10x what any individual has seen, and I personally trust their judgement about this... it's just time to tighten up a little.<br /><br />6. ANY OTHER VERIFICATION POSSIBILITIES? I'd bet there are at least two or three other methods out there to produce adequate verification. What are they? (I've suggested one above: a comination of online plus emailing in the logcard.) And I believe I read somewhere that c2bill would entertain other proof of performance, so what would be wrong with the folllowing (hypothetical) scenario (allowing c2bill to decide): Hey, Bill, I'm a 52 yo, M, HWT, just did a 6:18.0 2k, no witnesses, my own machine at home; I'm emailing my logcard; you can see that I've also done a 3:02 1k and a 16:50.0 5k within the last six weeks; please verify me!<br /><br />7. OF COURSE THERE ARE OTHER PROBLEMS. Let's not complicate the relatively straight-forward TIME verification issues with (a) weight; (b ) steroids; (c ) etc. issues, at least for now!<br /><br />So in summary, C2 is going the right way. Maybe they have to develop a little flexibility to satisfy more of us, but we have to realize we'll lose some innocence and convenience to gain some credibility for the rankings.<br /><br />Couldn't resist adding my bs to the pile! Such fun and all for free! Bert

[old] Godfried · Post by **[old] Godfried** » May 11th, 2005, 12:35 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ May 11 2005, 05:43 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>i row about 100,000 meters per day in water.<br />i'm an egyptian national champion in the 4- in 2005 and i won silver in the 8+ in 2005 too. </td></tr></table> </td></tr></table><br />Did you ask him to divide the meters rowed / number of rowers in the boat?

[old] michael · Post by **[old] michael** » May 11th, 2005, 12:44 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Godfried @ May 11 2005, 11:35 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ May 11 2005, 05:43 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>i row about 100,000 meters per day in water.<br />i'm an egyptian national champion in the 4- in 2005 and i won silver in the 8+ in 2005 too. </td></tr></table> </td></tr></table><br />Did you ask him to divide the meters rowed / number of rowers in the boat? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Maybe there's a race going on between these two top performing teens using ancient Egyptian biremes?

[old] ehagberg · Post by **[old] ehagberg** » May 11th, 2005, 12:50 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Godfried @ May 11 2005, 12:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michael @ May 11 2005, 05:43 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>i row about 100,000 meters per day in water.<br />i'm an egyptian national champion in the 4- in 2005 and i won silver in the 8+ in 2005 too. </td></tr></table> </td></tr></table><br />Did you ask him to divide the meters rowed / number of rowers in the boat? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />No, but I did point out that even if he were rowing at about the speed of some of the fastest on-water 2k times (say 6 minutes), he'd have to keep that pace up for 50 of these 2k pieces, which would take 5 hours... at a fast 2k speed.<br /><br />I think maybe someone out there has the definition of "meter" confused somehow. Even if it were loosely-translated to mean "foot", that would still be quite a distance to row on-water every day (30.5k).<br /><br />Or maybe he's multiplying the meters rowed by the number in the boat for some reason.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » May 11th, 2005, 12:56 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ehagberg @ May 11 2005, 04:26 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> i row about 100,000 meters per day in water.<br /><br /> i'm an egyptian national champion in the 4- in 2005 and i won silver in the 8+ in 2005 too.<br /> </td></tr></table> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'd have to check, but it seems a bit strange to have a National Championship already complete in 2005. Even in Egypt. <br /><br />100K on the water in a day would be well above any training regime on the planet. Possibly a problem with the metric system, though 100,000Dcm/day seems a little light for National team athletes. <br />

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New Requirements For Ranking Pieces

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