newb question/stroke power

[Deqlyn]

Im sure you have never heard this one before....

So I got the concept 2 on Jan 7th. Never rowed before. Sat down, did a 5k in 27:34.0, and average of 26 spm but hit the last 500 at 36spm. total strokes 644. avg.500 split-2:45.4

Watched some vids, really worked on technique and slowed my pace to keep under a 170 heart rate. Today rowed another 5k this time: 23:25.3 16spm. I was dying at 2.5k but powered through. I guess the question is if a racer is to average 24-26 spm. How can I scale that. Trying to stay below 170 heart rate it seems impossible to increase spms, of course i realize its been 1 week.

My assessment is at 16spm I was 43% more efficient than my first 5k due to form. I know the pace/numbers are bad but is my power good? Also how can I scale this to a 5k? I assume it just takes time. I guess the real question is am I getting my moneys worth on my strokes.

Prior to rowing I had been doing the spartacus workout 3 days a week as seen below. 31, male, 6'3 183lbs. Currently doing a 500m warmup(technique focused) before spartacus which Ive switched to slow reps heavy weights and finishing with the fastest 500m I can do, that is MWF. TRSS I am alternating between 5000M and 500M intervals with 1minute rests every other day. Should I ditch the 5K and go to a 2k instead? I want to be able to scale my current stroke to 24-26 spm if it is in fact efficient. Also my 500m has been dropping 2:40, 2:15, 1:57, 1:50. this is after my weights workout. What does the collective take from my numbers? I am motivated to be top in my age group and compete but as I'm 1.5 weeks in I'd rather not form bad habits. Please do not worry about being too critical, I realize I'm not a beautiful unique snowflake and have thick skin.

spartacus workout
https://toneandfit.files.wordpress.com/ ... page_2.jpg

[Deqlyn]

ok i just found how to display watts. What say the brain trust?

[jackarabit]

You have analytical skills and you used them to identify a stroke rate that maximized power per stroke for you. Now you're trying to carry your newfound power up to higher rates. I have no particular notion of how to scale your effort to make a performance forcast. Attempting to maintain your current 7.8W'/stroke (@ 18spm) while increasing rate to 23-26spm is going to work wonders for your average pace even if not instantly attainable. Keep the 5k or longer at least once per week. Only ten ten days into this game, you need endurance more than you need speed which means you need volume. I'd like to try that Spartacus circuit when I get tired of living!

[Bob S.]

I think that a critique video is in order. It is all well and good to study the training videos, but it doesn't always transfer over to practice. It is hard to recognize technique flaws without seeing yourself on the screen. With a video, you can check for yourself. And, if you post it, there are many on the forum that can give you a good idea of what you are doing, both right and wrong.

With proper technique, a guy your age and size can probably pull a much stronger stroke than 7.8 watt-minues per stroke.

[hjs]

At first, certainly wen you strenghttrained, the only thing you should do is longer rows, with modest spm think 20/24. And not with hf 170, but lower, use 150. Row at least 5k, but increese those distances.
Do not combine rowing with weights, this will bring you nothing.

Really start 6 weeks of just longer easy rows, after that you can tweak it a bit. But in general rowing is very simple. To get a fast 2k you need lots of long ergs, at lowish rate, at modest pace. 80% should be reative easy.

[Carl Watts]

Based on your age and height I would say your cardio needs alot of work before you reach your full potential.

5k is not a long row, your not going to start getting some decent gains until you start stretching it out to 30 to 40 minutes of rowing.

Your also going to have to drop the pace to get that heartrate down to more of a sustainable level that you can row 5 times a week.

Go for 18-20spm as a minimum, but its likely you will want to rate a little higher to start with. Find whats most comfortable, it may be 21-23spm.

[Deqlyn]

great feedback, appreciate the help.

re: videoing. I did have the wife video my "awesome technique" compared side by side I was using waaaayyy to much back. arms were coming in early. Once I think I have it down, I will post a video here.

Re: longer rows with a lower HR. so 80% of 189 is about 160. Do i just press the legs less if I want to keep the 20-24 spm? current damper is set to 3. Will try tonight and report back.


Re: poor cardio. I agree, granted I have never rowed before, but my HR being at 90% and a fast pace, who knew!? I looked at wattage per age group and realize i am in the "high school" range. I should give the caveat that 6'3 183 isnt all muscle. 36.5 chest 34 waist 39 stomach.... 21%bf. Anyways sounds like I have my work cut out for me. Rowing has been very humbling since I stepped on the machine.

So to regoup for now row for time+distance and keep my HR under 160. To up my SPM does that just take time or do I need to adjust the drag?

[Alissa]

Re: longer rows with a lower HR. so 80% of 189 is about 160. Do i just press the legs less if I want to keep the 20-24 spm? current damper is set to 3. Will try tonight and report back.

How does the time you take on the drive compare to the time you take on the recovery? You don't want a 1:1 relationship. Try for something like 1:2--or even more! (where the recovery takes longer)--The recovery is the part of the stroke where you rest. Push as hard as you are, just rest more on the recovery to reduce the spm. Think of your knees sort of "floating up" as you move back up the rail towards the catch.

HTH,

Alissa

[Deqlyn]

Ok kept my HR at 150 average which is just under 85% and my SPM in the low 20s. obviously watts are down and I got the sensation of running without running. So I need to keep at this pace(much like pete plan suggests) and build on the distance. Eventually you increase the intensity once you can keep your HR down? Is that the goal here? Needless to say i am going to try and find a rowing coach at the local club for a few sessions so I can quit botherin ya'll



HI Alissa, on my first sessions I was. As suggested by other posters I wanted to up my SPM, I believe I took twice the time in the recovery. next time will have the wife film at start and halfway through. thanks for the help!

[lindsayh]

Re: longer rows with a lower HR. so 80% of 189 is about 160. Do i just press the legs less if I want to keep the 20-24 spm? current damper is set to 3. Will try tonight and report back.
So to regoup for now row for time+distance and keep my HR under 160. To up my SPM does that just take time or do I need to adjust the drag?

Try and settle on a DF that suits and leave it at that unless you are racing a sprint or the like. Then just get used to the variability in the SR - it just takes practice at say 20,22,26,30.
The HR caps are expressed as 80% of heart rate reserve (HRR) rather than of MHR.
HRR = MHR (that is observed maximum by exertion) - RHR (that is observed lowest say resting before getting out of bed)
Then % is of HRR with RHR back in

for example if MHR = 180 and RHR = 60 then HRR = 120 and 80% = 80% of 120 (96) plus 60 = 156 is the goal or cap

[jamesg]

The PM data suggests you're rowing short strokes, as your own impression (running without running). Short strokes don't let you use your legs.

The numbers are: 116W/24 rating = 4.8 Watt minutes per stroke, far too low.

So the first thing to do is nail the technique. Keep the rating low (20) and move the handle as far as possible each stroke: so a long fast pull, with slow recovery to let the flywheel spin.

The peak power during a pull with two legs can be almost 1 kW. After that, we rest before the next stroke to bring the average down and not overload our CV systems: hence the low rating.

A few items may help to start with:

- very low drag (damper zero), so you can pull fast as if afloat, recover slow and have time to see how it's done;
- low feet to help posture at the catch; this is essential to getting a fast and hence short catch taken with the legs, leaving plenty of stroke length where you can do Work:
- recovery sequence with first arms away, then swing onto your feet, then lift the legs, always relaxed.

If you have a boat club nearby, they'll want you afloat now. Gyms can be useful, because they have all the wrong ideas about rowing, so we do just the opposite. They think we have to pull hard and rush at it. The trick in rowing is to move the boat fast without working hard. What else, when you're likely to be going miles and miles. In a short race, 2k or so, ok, you can break a sweat if you really want to, but even such races are not all that short.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4
See the UT1 work too.

[Deqlyn]

The PM data suggests you're rowing short strokes, as your own impression (running without running). Short strokes don't let you use your legs.

The numbers are: 116W/24 rating = 4.8 Watt minutes per stroke, far too low.

So the first thing to do is nail the technique. Keep the rating low (20) and move the handle as far as possible each stroke: so a long fast pull, with slow recovery to let the flywheel spin.

The peak power during a pull with two legs can be almost 1 kW. After that, we rest before the next stroke to bring the average down and not overload our CV systems: hence the low rating.

A few items may help to start with:

- very low drag (damper zero), so you can pull fast as if afloat, recover slow and have time to see how it's done;
- low feet to help posture at the catch; this is essential to getting a fast and hence short catch taken with the legs, leaving plenty of stroke length where you can do Work:
- recovery sequence with first arms away, then swing onto your feet, then lift the legs, always relaxed.

If you have a boat club nearby, they'll want you afloat now. Gyms can be useful, because they have all the wrong ideas about rowing, so we do just the opposite. They think we have to pull hard and rush at it. The trick in rowing is to move the boat fast without working hard. What else, when you're likely to be going miles and miles. In a short race, 2k or so, ok, you can break a sweat if you really want to, but even such races are not all that short.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4
See the UT1 work too.

based on this assessment and previous posts, i cant have a high SPM and high watts or else I max my heart rate. So I would guess i need to alternate suggestions here until I get my cardio up?

regarding clubs not a chance ill be getting in the water with them doing ALOT of work. its 6 degrees outside

[Bob S.]

regarding clubs not a chance ill be getting in the water with them doing ALOT of work. its 6 degrees outside

Lots of clubs have a good supply of indoor rowers and are busy in winter as well as during the rest of the year. Club rowers are usually happy to give advice on indoor towing as well out on the water.

[Deqlyn]

Bob, i am hoping I can find someone to help with my form for a few weeks/month til i get it down. I am will be trying tonight!


Ok here's tonights workout from the PPlan. I guess my cardio is just very low since I cant keep my SPMs up while keeping watts up without going above 80% HR

Only cure is time on the rower I suppose?

[markinnb]

.... Gyms can be useful, because they have all the wrong ideas about rowing, so we do just the opposite. They think we have to pull hard and rush at it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pf84O5cTWY4
See the UT1 work too.

that sly humor did not go unnoticed. ! lol.. learn what to do by watching what not to do.

the gym tonight was full of surprising things. while I was rowing the guys beside me were all over the place . rushing the slide, arms only , legs splayed, chains rattling like the ghosts of Ebenezer . I chuckled at that as I remember something that Jack had said about the chains rattling.

then there was a girl walking around backwards while hula hooping. if that is a verb. I actually want to figure out how to do that.. to develop rhythm of course.