New Requirements For Ranking Pieces

[[old] michaelb]

I thought I had been following this thread, and the C2 changes this season. But on the C2 main page, when I was looking for marathon world records, I found this where they list "world records" for all the distances by apparently showing the best time from a seasons rankings submitted in the past. <br /><br /><a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... ds_all.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... asp</a><br /><br />I hadn't ever noticed that before. That is a close to the suggestion that several of us were making to only have more strigent requirements for world record times, not seasonal rankings. I think verification requirements should apply to that listing (or maybe an asterisk next to records that are verified, or a field listing the verification of the record, so it could say "race" or "rowpro" or "not verified" etc). I would like to see that expanded to list the top 5, 10, or 20 times ever submitted, so that many more people can aspire to be on that list (limit the list to a person's best time in that distance/age, so you are only listed once).

[[old] JaapR]

<!--QuoteBegin-scout+May 10 2005, 12:27 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(scout @ May 10 2005, 12:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just out of curiosity - if this hasn't been answered already- what inspired the change in policy?<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />C2Bill, <br />I would appreciate your response. Please let us know also if C2 wants to update the ranking list with a VER(ified) flag added to the IND/RACE/ROWPRO column or implement another solution to avoid that the top rowers will not be able to put their (training) times in the ranking list. Thanks in advance for a reply.<br /><br />Jaap

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ehagberg+May 9 2005, 12:32 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ehagberg @ May 9 2005, 12:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if you allow weigh-in the night before an event (like in come collegiate events) you'll surely have people weighing 180lbs at the start of the race but qualifying as lightweights.[right] </td></tr></table>I agree with having the weigh in prior to the event and within one or two hours prior to the start. There should also be a weigh in immediately after, to verify the rower still meets the weigh in criteria. This should be a requirement for any lightweight record, and also to place in the standings of any lightweight classification.<br /><br />Anyone weighing more than the weight limit, either prior to or immediately after the event, is not a lightweight, and should not be given any lightweight records or awards.<br />

[[old] dadams]

<!--QuoteBegin-JaapR+May 10 2005, 02:21 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(JaapR @ May 10 2005, 02:21 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-scout+May 10 2005, 12:27 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(scout @ May 10 2005, 12:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just out of curiosity - if this hasn't been answered already- what inspired the change in policy?<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />C2Bill, <br />I would appreciate your response. Please let us know also if C2 wants to update the ranking list with a VER(ified) flag added to the IND/RACE/ROWPRO column or implement another solution to avoid that the top rowers will not be able to put their (training) times in the ranking list. Thanks in advance for a reply.<br /><br />Jaap <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Jaap,<br />There is a 'verified' flag on there now. I completed a 500m piece last night and had it verified. It will show up as 'IND_V'<br /><br />Dwayne

[[old] John Rupp]

Dwayne,<br /><br />Can you elaborate on how you got your piece verified, and so quickly.<br /><br />Also, how did you find a public machine.<br /><br />Nice time -- 1:14.5.

[[old] JaapR]

<!--QuoteBegin-dadams+May 10 2005, 03:12 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ May 10 2005, 03:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />Jaap,<br />There is a 'verified' flag on there now. I completed a 500m piece last night and had it verified. It will show up as 'IND_V'<br /><br />Dwayne<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thanks for reporting this Dwayne. So the procedure for verification is as suggested by C2, but anyone can still put in their times also without verification as before. Perfect. Thank you C2!<br /><br />Amazing time 1:14.5. I'm impressed. Congratulations. <br /><br />Jaap

[[old] John Rupp]

Japp,<br /><br />Until c2 responds or makes some clarification, their policy remains as they originally anounced it. <br /><br />In the meantime, let's not jump to any conclusions that make sense.

[[old] whp4]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+May 10 2005, 07:31 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ May 10 2005, 07:31 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ehagberg+May 9 2005, 12:32 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ehagberg @ May 9 2005, 12:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if you allow weigh-in the night before an event (like in come collegiate events) you'll surely have people weighing 180lbs at the start of the race but qualifying as lightweights.[right] </td></tr></table>I agree with having the weigh in prior to the event and within one or two hours prior to the start. There should also be a weigh in immediately after, to verify the rower still meets the weigh in criteria. This should be a requirement for any lightweight record, and also to place in the standings of any lightweight classification.<br /><br />Anyone weighing more than the weight limit, either prior to or immediately after the event, is not a lightweight, and should not be given any lightweight records or awards. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />And do you also propose to convince race organizers the world over to do this? It certainly isn't done for erg races, and I doubt it is for on-water ones either. Remember, under the current C2 proposal, race results qualify without prior notification, etc. Can you think of any other sport besides weight lifting with weight classes where the competitors are weighed both before and after competing? <br /><br />I'm a little dubious that there are rowers out there who can drop from 180 to 165 to make weight the night before, bulk back up over night and row more effectively than if they'd just managed to get their usual weight down to 165. 168-170 to 165, I can believe. Exactly which 15 lbs do those 180 lb rowers lose to make weight?<br /><br />The whole notion that rowers who weigh 170 lbs should have to compete with 220 lb monsters while those who weigh 160 lbs have to compete with someone who only weighed at most 5 lbs more at the time of weigh-in strikes me as much more unfair (and more likely to have a substantial impact on the event's outcome) than the presence of competitors who nominally make weight but compete slightly over. Having enough weight classes to eliminate this doesn't seem practical, however. As far as records are concerned, why should there be a lightweight class at all? Not really clear to me why Eskild's accomplishments on the erg should be more noteworthy than those of a slightly slower erger who weighs 10 lbs less, or a faster one who weighs 20 lbs more. I can hear the rallying cry now: "but on a watts/kg basis..." and to that my response is to have a ranking on a watts/kg basis in place of a lightweight category. Never happen, I'm sure, but it seems fairer (and as a side-effect, possibly safer) to those just on the wrong side of the weight breakpoint than the current system.<br /><br />Bill

[[old] Godfried]

<!--QuoteBegin-michaelb+May 10 2005, 08:59 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(michaelb @ May 10 2005, 08:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><a href='http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... ds_all.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/05/training/com ... asp</a><br /> </td></tr></table><br />It was there before : <a href='http://www.concept2.com/almanac/get_al_records.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/almanac/get_al_records.asp</a>

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+May 10 2005, 12:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ May 10 2005, 12:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In the meantime, let's not jump to any conclusions that make sense.    <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No one worries about you ever doing that, John. <br /><br />I'm still a little confused about the "Troll" label, but did notice that you have removed your rather troll-like appearing photograph. LOL

[[old] ehagberg]

<!--QuoteBegin-whp4+May 10 2005, 04:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(whp4 @ May 10 2005, 04:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm a little dubious that there are rowers out there who can drop from 180 to 165 to make weight the night before, bulk back up over night and row more effectively than if they'd just managed to get their usual weight down to 165.  168-170 to 165, I can believe.  Exactly which 15 lbs do those 180 lb rowers lose to make weight? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I often witnessed people who normally weighed about 175 drop to 160 for weigh-in the night before a race. It's water weight. There are a number of ways to dehydrate - most of which aren't very healthy - but I myself routinely dropped 7 or 8 pounds of water weight in a couple hours in the steam room (steam for 5-10 minutes, lukewarm shower, weigh self, repeat as needed...) prior to weigh-in in order to help get the boat average down so the heavier guys could just eek in under the max weight.<br /><br />Those who needed to drop 15 pounds needed to take more extreme measures.<br /><br />I, however, think its fine to weigh in an hour or two before an event and then be allowed to weigh whatever one desires during the event and immediately after. If someone has totally dehydrated shortly before an event, they'll likely hurt their performance, whereas those who don't need to drop more than a few pounds of water (or none) beforehand will be just fine. Having a post-event weigh-in isn't necessary IMO, as the negative impact of excessive dehydration will limit how agressively it is done... and if not it will limit the performance of the rower because they were really too heavy to begin with and dropped too much weight.

[[old] John Rupp]

The IND category is only if the time does not make the top ten.<br /><br />To make the time 10, you have to send info to get a code, to enter your time.<br /><br />You <b>cannot enter a top 10 time without getting a code from C2</b>.<br /><br /><b>The top 3 ranking spots must be rowed on a publicly accessible machine</b>. Was Dwayne's on a publicly accessible machine? Was there a witness? Why aren't these things noted in the profile information? I'm sure Dwayne's time is fine and have no question about that, BUT what is all the c2 clandestine stuff?<br /><br />Before, as many people are aware, one rower broke the World Record in qualifying for a national team a couple of years ago, then another rower was given his spot, and <b>who had not even passed a required qualification</b>.<br /><br />Is this the purpose of C2's new rules?<br /><br />As pointed out previously, C2 has made NO additional comment about it's rules and, based on past history, is going to leave them as announced.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-Bayko+May 8 2005, 09:25 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Bayko @ May 8 2005, 09:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the marathon was done at someone else's house on RowPro with two witnesses present doing their own marathons at the time.  That seems reasonably public.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Here we have Bayko already expecting his preferential treatment by C2.<br /><br />And the witnesses consisting of rowers who were themselves competing for the rankings.<br /><br />Now tell me, why would Paul Flack's closed in basement be okay, when someone else's similarly enclosed exercise room or (in my case) wide open garage would not be acceptable!!!???

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-c2bill+May 5 2005, 11:25 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(c2bill @ May 5 2005, 11:25 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->dwayne - you are unfortunately one of the people that this rule will impact -and i apologize for the inconvenience. the ranking is more than just a collection of 2k times - each event is valuable and important to the integrity of the ranking. if anything this will make a top spot more valuable and credible than ever before - benefitting the top performers in all events. There are several rowing and health clubs i have a relationship with in your area - i'll personally take on the responsibility of ensuring that you have access to a machine when ever you feel ready to post a top time.<br /><br />regards,<br />bill[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />It's nice to have BillP on your side, when you want to get a top 3 time in the rankings.<br /><br />Woe to those of us who don't have such access and connections!

[[old] Dickie]

<!--QuoteBegin-ehagberg+May 10 2005, 05:32 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ehagberg @ May 10 2005, 05:32 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-whp4+May 10 2005, 04:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(whp4 @ May 10 2005, 04:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm a little dubious that there are rowers out there who can drop from 180 to 165 to make weight the night before, bulk back up over night and row more effectively than if they'd just managed to get their usual weight down to 165.  168-170 to 165, I can believe.  Exactly which 15 lbs do those 180 lb rowers lose to make weight? <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I often witnessed people who normally weighed about 175 drop to 160 for weigh-in the night before a race. It's water weight. There are a number of ways to dehydrate - most of which aren't very healthy - but I myself routinely dropped 7 or 8 pounds of water weight in a couple hours in the steam room (steam for 5-10 minutes, lukewarm shower, weigh self, repeat as needed...) prior to weigh-in in order to help get the boat average down so the heavier guys could just eek in under the max weight.<br /><br />Those who needed to drop 15 pounds needed to take more extreme measures.<br /><br />I, however, think its fine to weigh in an hour or two before an event and then be allowed to weigh whatever one desires during the event and immediately after. If someone has totally dehydrated shortly before an event, they'll likely hurt their performance, whereas those who don't need to drop more than a few pounds of water (or none) beforehand will be just fine. Having a post-event weigh-in isn't necessary IMO, as the negative impact of excessive dehydration will limit how agressively it is done... and if not it will limit the performance of the rower because they were really too heavy to begin with and dropped too much weight. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />In my past life as a high school and college wrestler, I have witnessed athletes drop as much as 13 pounds of water weightt in the 3 hours before a weigh in. This was accomplished by heavy calisthenics in a warm room wearing a rubber suit. And before you tell me how dangerous this can be, it was in the 1973 to 1978 time frame, before we knew all the dangers.