Still confused on damping factor

[Alissa]

Try a drill. It will take you a little less than half an hour, and you'll have a much better idea of how the drag factors/damper settings work.

Start at damper setting "10." Check what the associated drag factor is and record it. Then row for a minute at whatever pace (time/500m) you think is a good one for you. Active rest for 20 or 30 seconds--you choose (paddle only...keep moving but no pressure).

During your active rest, move the damper one gradation (check the drag factor again and record it) and do another minute at the same pace

Keep doing that until you return to the original damper setting. If you start with 10, the damper settings will look like this:

10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

HTH,

Alissa

[markinnb]

Say I row one minute at the rate of 20 SPM in DF 100 and DF 200. Which one results in more distance? I assume DF 200. Correct?

from your other question:

I am 56, 165 lb, 5'11''. My normal HR is 64. I bought a model B with no PM lately, trying to use that to do my cardio exercise instead of running treadmill. My HR reaches 150 running on TM in about 10 minutes but I can't reach that in 20 minutes of rowing. I am doing about 32 SPM. I have watched a few rowing technique videos on YouTube. I think I am not too far off.
I know model B is much heaver than model C and D by reading the posts here. Should I cover the fan like many people have done here? Will that help? Am I doing something wrong? Thank you for your help.

you don`t have a PM with your rower. so you may not be able to do as jamesg and allisa have suggested: you need the monitor to follow watts and pace.
and you seem to have been unaware of how force applied , rating, and watts / pace all work together. ignoring stroke technique.
and which combo of these factors give you the best results.

your question removed a crucial element: the pace for each one. you may want to reword it to include " with the same force per stroke in each case "- then people may be able to help you find your answer. But first, buy a monitor.

at your level of experience, i would not recommend you going all out with drag factor or 200 for r 20. not suggesting that you said that you would go all out. I am saying to not do it. it is very taxing on your body

[jackarabit]

Viola!! Excellent discovery, Mark! You are a born gumshoe. Couldn't do the df drill; couldn't find out for himself!

[Bob S.]

you don`t have a PM with your rower. so you may not be able to do as jamesg and allisa have suggested: you need the monitor to follow watts and pace.

Aha! So that was on another thread. Missed that along with most of the other responders. That changes the game considerably. Without a monitor, there is no way of knowing what the DF is and even the damper setting is not a clue, since the Model B has a completely different damping system and a much heavier flywheel. Fully closed the DF is still well above 100 - something like 150. I don't know what the top is, but the range is much narrower than on the closed cage machines. Now I understand what the OP was driving at. It wasn't a question that could be answered by just experimenting on that machine. Without a monitor, all that is left is using a clock and feel and perhaps a HR monitor. One can still get a workout that way and some do. But with only time and possibly HR, there is not much solid data to work with.

[bcjm]

I bought a PM2 few days ago for my model B and I bought a brand new D which arrived today. I put the D together and rowed for 30 minutes at DF 120. I rowed with longer stroke like someone suggested. At rate 20, my HR was high and I was exhausted after 30 minutes.

Since I have a PM for the B now, I can see the DF is between 180 and 240 (setting fully closed and full open).

Now I have rowed at DF 120 which I like very much, I just need to make a speed ring to cover the opening for the B. It should be as effective as the D. I just need to convince my wife why do I want to keep both rower.

[Citroen]

Now I have rowed at DF 120 which I like very much, I just need to make a speed ring to cover the opening for the B. It should be as effective as the D. I just need to convince my wife why do I want to keep both rower.

There's one of two reasons:

1. Rowers are like bicycles. The number of bicycles you need is always the number you've got plus one.
2. His'n'Hers rowing sessions. In that case you'll NEED a copy of RowPro (or freebie venue racing if you're a cheapskate) so you can workout together.

[Tim K.]

The reason damper setting is difficult to get your head around is because the people who understand it understand several concepts not just how the damper works. They then tend to explain how a damper works using the other concepts the audience doesnt understand either or use analogies that fail to make the point.

Consider the following:
You have a power lifter (280lbs) and a sprinter (160lbs). You put a cart in front of them and instruct them to push the cart 50 meters (cart weights 20 lbs). Sprinter reaches the finish line first. The sprinter is deemed more powerful than the power lifter because he was able to do the specified amount of work faster than the power lifter. Is this accurate?

Test is repeated however 20 lbs is added to the cart. Outcome is the same, sprinter reaches the line first.

Test is repeated several times, each time adding mass to the cart and each time the margin of victory is reduced until the power lifter begins to win and the sprinter begins to fall further behind and eventually is unable to move the cart all together. This last test implies that sprinter is unable to do any work at all! is that accurate?

When the cart is empty that is analogous to a damper setting of 1. When the cart unmovable by the sprinter that is analogous to a damper setting of 10. During one of the tests was the load that generated the highest output for the participant but you can be sure it wasnt the same test for both of them.

If you are extremely strong (can generate tremendous force) but slow moving then a damper setting of 10 is appropriate for you. A damper setting of 1 would result in you wagging yourself back and forth on the rail and doing very little measurable work. If you are not able to develop much force but are able to move very quickly, a damper setting of 1 is appropriate for you. A damper setting of 10 would result in very slow strokes and no more suitable than 1 was for the other guy. It is impossible to advise of the correct setting, it is something you need to find for yourself through experimentation. C2 advises a damper setting that provides a comparable "feel" to that generated by a boat of a certain type with oars of a certain length but that is not necessary what you want or need.

The damper is in fact very much like gearing on a bicycle as the test described above would follow the same pattern. The faster moving individual would perform better with the numerically higher gearing and the slower, stronger individual would perform better with the numerically lower gearing.

At some point in the range of 1-10 you will find the setting that allows an individual to "perform" the best but it is extremely individual. You may also want to train to improve you speed or power so increasing or decreasing the drag may help you with that.


Im short, reasonably strong but move kind of slow. A setting of 3 makes me feel like Im running down hill. 10 feels good to me. I plan to slowly reduce the drag factor to work on stroke speed, then may start to increase drag to try to develop more force at the higher speeds.

The damper is in fact very much like gearing on a bicycle as the test described above would follow the same pattern. The faster moving individual would perform better with the numerically higher gearing and the slower, stronger individual would perform better with the numerically lower gearing. Flame suit is on.

[hjs]

Hahaha, I one does not get drag they better skip your view

[markinnb]

The reason damper setting is difficult to get your head around is because the people who understand it understand several concepts not just how the damper works. They then tend to explain how a damper works using the other concepts the audience doesnt understand either or use analogies that fail to make the point.

Consider the following:
You have a power lifter (280lbs) and a sprinter (160lbs). You put a cart in front of them and instruct them to push the cart 50 meters (cart weights 20 lbs). Sprinter reaches the finish line first. The sprinter is deemed more powerful than the power lifter because he was able to do the specified amount of work faster than the power lifter. Is this accurate?

Test is repeated however 20 lbs is added to the cart. Outcome is the same, sprinter reaches the line first.

Test is repeated several times, each time adding mass to the cart and each time the margin of victory is reduced until the power lifter begins to win and the sprinter begins to fall further behind and eventually is unable to move the cart all together. This last test implies that sprinter is unable to do any work at all! is that accurate?

When the cart is empty that is analogous to a damper setting of 1. When the cart unmovable by the sprinter that is analogous to a damper setting of 10. During one of the tests was the load that generated the highest output for the participant but you can be sure it wasnt the same test for both of them.

If you are extremely strong (can generate tremendous force) but slow moving then a damper setting of 10 is appropriate for you. A damper setting of 1 would result in you wagging yourself back and forth on the rail and doing very little measurable work. If you are not able to develop much force but are able to move very quickly, a damper setting of 1 is appropriate for you. A damper setting of 10 would result in very slow strokes and no more suitable than 1 was for the other guy. It is impossible to advise of the correct setting, it is something you need to find for yourself through experimentation. C2 advises a damper setting that provides a comparable "feel" to that generated by a boat of a certain type with oars of a certain length but that is not necessary what you want or need.

The damper is in fact very much like gearing on a bicycle as the test described above would follow the same pattern. The faster moving individual would perform better with the numerically higher gearing and the slower, stronger individual would perform better with the numerically lower gearing.

At some point in the range of 1-10 you will find the setting that allows an individual to "perform" the best but it is extremely individual. You may also want to train to improve you speed or power so increasing or decreasing the drag may help you with that.


Im short, reasonably strong but move kind of slow. A setting of 3 makes me feel like Im running down hill. 10 feels good to me. I plan to slowly reduce the drag factor to work on stroke speed, then may start to increase drag to try to develop more force at the higher speeds.

The damper is in fact very much like gearing on a bicycle as the test described above would follow the same pattern. The faster moving individual would perform better with the numerically higher gearing and the slower, stronger individual would perform better with the numerically lower gearing. Flame suit is on.

interesting stuff.

[Bob S.]

@ Tim K.: Your analogy is off because even a weak pull will spin the wheel on a setting of 10. It is not like a weight that cannot be lifted (or moved as in your analogy) if it is beyond your capacity. Same deal with bicycle gearing. If you are going up a hill and the gear ratio is too high, the bike won't move even if you are standing on a pedal with all your weight on it.

You can of course feel the change in resistance of the erg wheel as the damper is changed, but the major effect is the fact the the wheel slows down much faster at a high damper setting.

Bob S.

[Tim K.]

Anyone educated, even slightly in centrifugal pumps/blowers (like the one attached to the end of the chain we all love to pull on) knows why they work why opening and closing the damper makes it slow more or less and why on "10" even a weak pull will spin the wheel. I was not trying to educate anyone on compressible fluid dynamics. Its an analogy, it is inherently "off". Analogies are great, right up until someone tries to take them literally. The whole point of an analogies is to relate a concept, idea or WHY that someone is having difficulty understanding to something they may already understand or can more easily relate to.

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/analogy

As far as analogies go I think it was a pretty good one.


Bob, lets stick a 6 tooth sprocket on the end of this shaft and take turns trying to spin it: https://www.flickr.com/photos/28709338@N04/11213177545

The major "effect" is that the wheel is doing more work for a given speed it is spinning at the more you open the damper. Greater airflow = more work at a given speed. The only difference between a bike and the rower is there is a fluid coupling between the drive and the work. Like putting your car in Drive and having your foot on the break. The engine is still turning but there is no desirable work being done.

[markinnb]

Anyone educated, even slightly in centrifugal pumps/blowers (like the one attached to the end of the chain we all love to pull on) knows why they work why opening and closing the damper makes it slow more or less and why on "10" even a weak pull will spin the wheel. I was not trying to educate anyone on compressible fluid dynamics. Its an analogy, it is inherently "off". Analogies are great, right up until someone tries to take them literally. The whole point of an analogies is to relate a concept, idea or WHY that someone is having difficulty understanding to something they may already understand or can more easily relate to.

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/analogy

As far as analogies go I think it was a pretty good one.


Bob, lets stick a 6 tooth sprocket on the end of this shaft and take turns trying to spin it: https://www.flickr.com/photos/28709338@N04/11213177545

wow

[jackarabit]

Amusing that the OP went off to purchase a monitor for his old model B and we are left to prod the elephant with our white canes. That's a very large millwind, Tim.

[jamesg]

Say I row one minute at the rate of 20 SPM in DF 100 and DF 200. Which one results in more distance? I assume DF 200. Correct?

The attitude is wrong. We don't suffer the drag and hope any value might get good results for us whatever. None will. The "distance" traveled depends only on what we do, as you have seen.

We're here to get fit and this means pull long hard strokes and plenty of them, learning how first if necessary. Not worry about the engineering, C2 have already done that.

Experience is that high drag is catastrophic. So start low, as you have (120 or less) and pull those long hard strokes. In a month's time, take stock and every month after that too. Now you have the monitor you can see it all in detail.