Still confused on damping factor

[bcjm]

I thought I can get a clear yes/no answer.

Is this a correct: The performance calculation is solely based on the energy(watts) the rower puts in. Energy is determined by the rpm of the flywheel(when pull)and the weight of the flywheel(changed by the DF). PM maps the energy input to the speed of a boat. This is the only explaination makes sense to me.

To the first sentence, yes. To the second - not at all. For one thing, the weight of the flywheel is constant. And, as its name implies, the drag factor is determined by the rate at which the flywheel is slowed by the drag of the air. With regard to the third, it is based on a "standard boat" and I believe that the 4x was the particular boat chosen.

The static weight of the flywheel is constant but the dynamic weight can vary base on the DF setting. C2 document says it is like pulling a light boat or heavy boat when changing DF. if the rower puts in the same amount of energy E rowing two different DFs, the higher DF should result in less rpm. I assume there is a mathematical equation that E=rpm X weight.

[bcjm]

I want to added that since the performance is calculated based on the energy, that is why setting DF is irrelevant. No matter what DF you are using it is the energy you put in matters.

[hjs]

Say I row one minute at the rate of 20 SPM in DF 100 and DF 200. Which one results in more distance? I assume DF 200. Correct?

no.

Like said before, its the force on the handle that gives energy to the flywheel.
The stroke has two parts and thats where the comparison with cycling goes wrong. With cycling the crackspeed is constant, during the whole 360 movement we put energy in the system. Not so with rowing. Here only the drivefase gives energy, the recovery does nothing.

What does drag? With a higher drag, the flywheel turns slower (more air, more resistance) so with the same driveforce the drivefase will be slower and thus longer in time. This means that to keep the same spm the recovery fase needs to be faster to keep the whole strokefase the same time.

So the lower the drag, the faster the fan spins, with less resistance. This needs a faster drivefase and a more precise stroke.

For sprinting a higher drag is often needed, cause the drivespeed here is the limithing factor, a higher drag gives more time per stroke to put energy in the wheel.

[bcjm]

Say I row one minute at the rate of 20 SPM in DF 100 and DF 200. Which one results in more distance? I assume DF 200. Correct?

Maybe I should be more clear. I was trying to make SPM constant so it is easier to compare. I understand there are more things to consider. Say the rower uses the same rate (SPM), same technique etc. Everything is the same except DF. In order to maintain the same rate, the rower needs to put in more energy if DF is higher (heavier flywheel). Higher energy results in better performance in the same time period.

[Bob S.]

@ Jon: Yeah, I like that one. I doubt that it would do for the C2 website, but I like the way you tied in the various factors. Your point about distinguishing the damper setting from the resistance changes in a weight stack is certainly a valid one. That seems to be a major point of confusion for first time C2 users. I always like to refer newbies to Damper Setting 101, which does a good job of clarifying that.

I am not so happy about the website calling the damper range 1-10 - it ignores the readily observable fact that it is 0-10. Or, if someone considers the setting to mean that the pointer is right on the number, then it would be 0.5-10.5, since the lever can go below the 1 and above the 10. When someone reports a damper setting number, there is always this ambiguity - was the pointer dead on the middle of the number, at the bottom of the block, or at the top of the block?

Yeah, pedantry can get tiresome pretty quickly. Sorry about that.

Bob S.

[Bob S.]

Maybe I should be more clear. I was trying to make SPM constant so it is easier to compare. I understand there are more things to consider. Say the rower uses the same rate (SPM), same technique etc. Everything is the same except DF. In order to maintain the same rate, the rower needs to put in more energy if DF is higher (heavier flywheel). Higher energy results in better performance in the same time period.

It was already clear enough all right and the answer is still the same: You have to experiment around to find out what works best for you and even then it might vary depending on the type of piece you are doing. In any case, keeping the work per stroke constant is a far better approach than staying at the same SPM.

Bob S.

[c2jonw]

I am not so happy about the website calling the damper range 1-10 - it ignores the readily observable fact that it is 0-10. Or, if someone considers the setting to mean that the pointer is right on the number, then it would be 0.5-10.5, since the lever can go below the 1 and above the 10. When someone reports a damper setting number, there is always this ambiguity - was the pointer dead on the middle of the number, at the bottom of the block, or at the top of the block?

Yes, I see what you're saying- the total range is arguably 11- going from .5 to 10.5. To tell you the truth we considered other ways of incrementing because of people making that connection between weights and the 1-10, i.e., of course you must be getting a better/harder workout on 10 and therefore 10 should be my goal. If we really want people to use the Drag Factor on the monitor and use the damper setting as just a sort of reference then arguably we could use letters or colors or reverse the number scale or emoticons or something else.......C2JonW

[hjs]

Say I row one minute at the rate of 20 SPM in DF 100 and DF 200. Which one results in more distance? I assume DF 200. Correct?

Maybe I should be more clear. I was trying to make SPM constant so it is easier to compare. I understand there are more things to consider. Say the rower uses the same rate (SPM), same technique etc. Everything is the same except DF. In order to maintain the same rate, the rower needs to put in more energy if DF is higher (heavier flywheel). Higher energy results in better performance in the same time period.

Higher energy indeed gives best results, but its very easy to use more energy at lower drags.

If drag is the different and you want to use the same rate, which is perfectly possible, technique has to change no way to get around this.
And to keep the same rate, you DON,T have to put in more energy. Use a slow stroke and a fast recovery, you still can use rate 20 but go very slow.

[jamesg]

Say the rower uses the same rate (SPM), same technique etc. Everything is the same except DF

Why don't you try it and see?

I thought I can get a clear yes/no answer.

You did. The answer is NO.

[lindsayh]

Say the rower uses the same rate (SPM), same technique etc. Everything is the same except DF

Why don't you try it and see?

I thought I can get a clear yes/no answer.

You did. The answer is NO.

I agree - the answer is no.
IMO people worry a bit too much about the DF - in general find a good spot that suits between 100 and 140 unless you are monster strong and training/racing for sprints and just use it. It actually doesn't make much difference most of the time whether you do a piece at one end of that range or the other. (Although at 200 and sr 20 you have to use a weird stroke as Henry suggested because the wheel is slowing so quickly.) In general with slower SRs you should go faster with lower DFs as you are using power to maintain a spinning wheel rather than overcoming the inertia of the slowing wheel.

[jackarabit]

Is there an answer to bcjm's first question? I maintain the view that, in an empiirical trial of both sets of conditions, an observed performance of greater accumulated distance may accompany either set, irregardless of the degree to which the posited conditions may or may not be critical to producing the recorded distance.

[hjs]

Is there an answer to bcjm's first question? I maintain the view that, in an empiirical trial of both sets of conditions, an observed performance of greater accumulated distance may accompany either set, irregardless of the degree to which the posited conditions may or may not be critical to producing the recorded distance.

Jack, for most the high drag will give the best distance, reason we simply have more stroketime at high drag. For the 20 strokes a low drag will say 1/4 of the stroke time, (just an example) 15 seconds from the minute time to deliver energy, increese the drag and that time will get more. So more distance.

But not very strong people won,t be able to get a high round, for those the optimum drag will be lower. Reason here is the limited max power.

And looking in practice, the very best rowers use max drag on 100 meter, but on the 500 most drop it already some. Ifcourse this is free rate, not rate 20.

[bcjm]

First of all, I am not trying to saying high DF or low DF is better. In fact, I am trying find a way to explain this scientifically that DF is irreverent how PM calculates the performance. Different rowers need to find different DF so they can produce the most power in a certain time period.

[jackarabit]

Reading your response, Henry, the debunked bicycle gearing analogy retakes some ground, e.g., many can spin up their granny; few can turn the 54/11 to good effect.

[hjs]

Reading your response, Henry, the debunked bicycle gearing analogy retakes some ground, to wit, many can spin up their granny; few can turn the 54/11 to good effect.

Mwa, the fact remains, on a bike there is a direct relation between pace and spm, which there is not on a erg. There newbies often and use high drag and high spm, but still go slow.

Anther difference is variance in strokelenght, very possible on the erg, paddlelenght in cycling is again fixed.