Slides versus Static Erging

[Cyclingman1]

Don’t really know how much interest there is in this topic because few use slides. Nonetheless, it may still be interesting. I just started a few days ago on slides and am quite surprised at how different they are. I’ll share my experiences and observations.

First of all, slides are NOT easier. No way. They are harder. What I mean by that is the effort it takes to maintain a pace. I find it quite difficult to keep the Watts per stroke up. To compensate, one has to row at much higher SPM. But that is not enough.

For example, on a static, for a moderate 5K, I might row at 28.5, 9 W/s or 1:50.8 or 18:28. Today, I tried 5K on slides; I was not dogging it. I ended up at 19:01 @1:54.1, 33 SPM, W/s 7.1. I was able to get to 7.5 over the last 4min. Well slower than I ever really do on a good effort on a static. Then, for the heck of it, I did a 1K cool down without the slides. Again, a weird feeling. I immediately noticed more pressure under the balls of my feet. I ended up at 1:46.9, 29 SPM, W/s 9.9. Way different than what I had just done. This is the kind of thing I have been experiencing the last few days. I admit to only just starting, but I don’t see a fast 5K on slides - ever.

On the other hand it is easier to maintain high SPM. Yesterday, just messing around I did 1:30.0 for 1 min at 51 SPM. I never have done that on a static. But that was only 9.4 W/s. I would have been around 12 W/s if on a static. Perhaps for .5K and less, slides may actually help with a fast time. I plan on trying.

I have some ideas about all of this. On a static, one, of course, is fighting the fan and the rolling friction of the seat rollers. On slides, much more is going on. Yes, a side view shows a person not moving. But the rail is moving under one. The seat roller friction is still there. In addition there are the eight rollers on the slides. That is friction that must be overcome. Of course, there is still the fan to overcome. More forces are at work against the rower on slides. On recovery, somehow pulling the rower back under the seat lessens the recovery time. The faster SPM seems to come almost automatically. 34 SPM on a static feels fast; not so on slides.

I’m not really sure that I like the slides. I’ll have to determine as to whether they may be of benefit. In any event, informative comments are solicited.

Oh yeah, there is the notion that slides feel more like a scull. Maybe, I just find erging and sculling to very different, sculling being very difficult and precise. Erging is a pure fitness activity. It is impossible to tip over an erg.

[gregsmith01748]

Interesting post, Jim.

I find the same thing you do. I can use rate more effectively and sprint better on slides, but what I call my stroke efficiency is lower and I struggle for middle distance pieces. My best 5k pace is probably about 3 sec/500 slow on slides versus static.

Our experience is different from world class on the water rowers, who in general think rowing on slides gives them about a second per 500 advantage over static. I chalk that up to them having a rowing style (force curve) that is optimized for OTW, and that translates better to slides. Honestly it could also be that their pace and rate over 5k is faster than what I can do over a 500m sprint

I am focusing on getting as fast as I can on a static erg for indoor racing right now, but right after the crash-b's, I am starting a project to try to narrow the gap between my slide efficiency and my static efficiency to try to help me get faster in my boat.

[Marsh_Creek_Sculler]

There was a recent post on static vs. sliders on ROW2K http://www.row2k.com/features/938/Eric- ... pEq5BUrI1I It gets into some of the physics behind the numbers.

Basically, you are moving less mass on each stroke with the sliders since you are only moving the machine and not your body and that translates into some increased efficiency. It's normal to expect to maintain a higher rating on the sliders and that is one of the reasons OTW rowers like them. It's a better approximation of the rates they can maintain in a boat. The sliders do demand better technique than the static ergs, but once you learn that it will also translate into better results on the statics. (I think I just talked myself into buying a set )

[Cyclingman1]

Coming up with a complete physical model of erging would have to be difficult. I have a gut feeling that some stuff has been left out of the erging model. For example, roller friction. I pretty much know what I'm doing on an erg and it is very noticeable to me that sliders are more difficult on which to achieve the same pace. My differential is very similar to Greg's: about 3s/500m on a 5K. But I'll be using them more in the future and trying to maximize efficiency. I'll be the first to admit that I've gotten much better on slides when that day comes.

I'm interested in someone posting here who has reliable numbers of being faster on slides for a 5K assuming perceived effort is very similar [don't know how else to ensure the efforts are similar].

[steveroedde]

Coming up with a complete physical model of erging would have to be difficult. I have a gut feeling that some stuff has been left out of the erging model. For example, roller friction. I pretty much know what I'm doing on an erg and it is very noticeable to me that sliders are more difficult on which to achieve the same pace. My differential is very similar to Greg's: about 3s/500m on a 5K. But I'll be using them more in the future and trying to maximize efficiency. I'll be the first to admit that I've gotten much better on slides when that day comes.

I'm interested in someone posting here who has reliable numbers of being faster on slides for a 5K assuming perceived effort is very similar [don't know how else to ensure the efforts are similar].

Hi Jim, good for you for wading into this one. Of course, at this point in time I do not believe there is evidence that slides are faster. There is belief, there is theory.... but the best evidence on the topic is here: http://highperformancerowing.net/journa ... mic-e.html
In this study, the rowers did 2 x 1k pieces in random order, at their individual 2 k race pace. One on slides (which they called "dynamic") and one static. Oxygen uptake was measured along with rate, force at the handle and other parameters. Both novice (one season) and more experienced (but not world-class) male and female rowers were included. I won't go into all the results but the O2 cost to hold the same pace was higher on sllides...at least in the males.
I do not doubt that world class scullers, who in the main do their dryland training on dynamic ergs, would find slides faster. As you say, they are "different" and far closer to the sculling they do. Everything we know about sport-specific training says you will be better doing...what you train at! I would be willing to put money on these athletes getting identical results..on the static...if they trained...static...which they will not do...because it is less specific for what they race.
Until such time as other evidence is published, there is zero evidence that suggests that slides ar faster (although my belief is the same as you and Greg's...that I may get an edge in short pieces...I do not confuse this belief with ...evidence).

[Cyclingman1]

Certainly considerable difference in the data for static versus slides. I would say I am worse than the subjects in the study. I'm not sure that I could equal my moderate 5K static erg effort on slides. I'll probably find out in coming weeks. Although, Steve, I think you're way past me on solving the slide riddle. Your times do not lie.

[Carl Watts]

The bottom line is that the slides must give the experienced rower an advantage or it would be allowed for the 2K WR.

As it stands you cannot use slides for the 2K. You will however notice the Eric Murray quickly jumped on a static on slides for his recent 5K WR.

You mentioned the fact its easier to rate up, I think this is where the advantage comes in, the slides assist your recovery and Eric was rating at 36 to 40 spm.

[rowingmillie]

Interesting topic

Personally I find my times are MUCH better on slides than static, which seems to be the view of Rowing Australia as well to a lesser degree (see below).

I do most of my training on slides or a RowPerfect but sometimes do workouts on statics if e.g. I am travelling and so using a hotel gym. For example, I got the following differences for 4 x 1000m / 5'r (sessions 3 weeks apart, was feeling fine / fit for both sessions and I used the same drag factor of 110):

Concept 2 slides (earlier this week): average pace 1:54.1, av spm 31.
Concept 2 Static (mid Dec): average pace 1:59.6, av spm 30
max HR 176-178 on both

However, I am an OTW rower who is relatively short (5'7") and light (66kg). I think for me the slides are more efficient and my technique is better suited to slides. I think for taller / stronger rowers maybe it is reversed. I also find that on slides the weight of the erg makes a bit of a difference with the Model D being a few kg lighter than the Model E (obviously this makes no difference in static mode) so when I have done erg tests e.g. for selection trials where we can use slides I make sure we have one of the Model D's up on the slides

There is some discussion of static vs. slides in the Rowing Australia Erg protocols copied below - they seem to think that slides are a bit easier:

http://www.rowingaustralia.com.au/wp-co ... s-V3.0.pdf

7.1.1.2 Ergometer Modality
Sliding or stationary ergometer allowed; bear in mind that workloads prescribed from a 30 min open rate test on sliders will be more difficult if the 6 x 6 is undertaken in the fixed modality – our initial estimations would suggest the workloads are 10-15 W harder on a fixed ergometer

Trial of different ergometer modality and drag factors are encouraged during the weekly ergometer monitoring sessions. Bear in mind that workloads prescribed from a stationary 30 min open rate test will be easier if the 6 x 6 or 6km @ 95% are undertaken in the sliding modality – our initial estimations would suggest the workloads are 10-15 W harder on a fixed ergometer compared with a sliding ergometer.

[Cyclingman1]

Personally I find my times are MUCH better on slides than static, which seems to be the view of Rowing Australia as well to a lesser degree (see below).

I'm not getting a warm, fuzzy feeling from this post. The article referred to is mostly talking about tests on a static erg. The 4x1000 rows were done at 6.8 W/s on a static. That's a warm up number. And the comment about taller/stronger rowers being better on static. Where did that come from? And it so happens that most good rowers in the world are taller/stronger.

[rowingmillie]

Personally I find my times are MUCH better on slides than static, which seems to be the view of Rowing Australia as well to a lesser degree (see below).

I'm not getting a warm, fuzzy feeling from this post. The article referred to is mostly talking about tests on a static erg. The 4x1000 rows were done at 6.8 W/s on a static. That's a warm up number. And the comment about taller/stronger rowers being better on static. Where did that come from? And it so happens that most good rowers in the world are taller/stronger.

1:59.6 may be a warm up number for you but it's definitely not for me I am female, over 40 (so a masters rower), not particularly heavy or tall, but I am very competitive OTW (4 medals at our national masters rowing championships this year including silver in WC1x and interstate quad). Agree that most good rowers are taller / stronger, the comment is purely from my own observations of myself and other rowers at my rowing club and isn't based on proper research / experimentation. I guess whilst I find my times to be better on slides, it certainly isn't the case for everyone and my analytical brain has tried to rationalise why this could be the case .

I had previously read the Benson et al research article referred to by Steve Roedde which is certainly more scientific / thorough than my empirical observations... however, that article found that the difference between static and slides was more pronounced for men (taller, heavier, stronger) than women (who in the study were actually about my height and weight but being collegiate rowers would be a fair bit stronger than me). The authors surmised that this difference may have been due to more familiarity with slides by the women vs. the men, but maybe it was due to strength / weight characteristics?

[jamesg]

The kinetic energy needed to accelerate mass is mV²/2 J, with m in kg and V in m/s. On the erg this happens twice per stroke.

At rate 30, the power P needed is (30x2/60) x mV²/2 J/s = mV²/2 W, if the speed of the cg is the same in both directions.

On a static erg V (the max speed of our cg) is roughly 1 m/s. If m = 100 kg, P = 50W.

On a dynamic or slides, the power needed is roughly 1/3 of this, say 15 W, because we shift mass at lower speed. So these machines for the same pace, and for the same rating by a 100kg erger, need 35 W less total power from him. Scullers have it even better, as the boat weighs about 15kg.

Spending this saved power on the handle is the problem. The most obvious way is to increase the rating by the fraction of work saved/work to flywheel, but change nothing else.

At rate 30 a good erger of the above size will deliver about 350W, so can deliver, once he sees how, another 35 W to the handle (3 extra strokes/minute).

Clearly he's using different muscles, so while Newton lets us see what can happen, the erger may find a problem in making it happen. Which is what the research found.

[Cyclingman1]

Well, there certainly seems to be much conflicting information about the relative difficulty of using slides or static. The article referenced by Steve Roedde clearly shows the increased difficulty of slides. James G through his mathematical power analysis shows that slides should be easier.

I have to go with what I experience. At this point, I'm not even close to my static numbers while using slides. My best 5K this winter was 18:13, a tough effort. Yesterday, a pretty tough effort on slides yielded 19:01. Familiarity is an issue, but not 4.8 s/500m. Also, while it is true that I do all of my erging in the 28-30 SPM range and no low rate work, it is quite possible that my fitness level will not let me do 35 SPM with the necessary power. I think that I'm becoming even more impressed with Steve's 60+ LWt WRs, because he did them on slides with times better than he has done on static. Obviously, he is comfortable with high SPM.

I'm still waiting for a regular Joe Blow rower on these forums, not an ex Olympic medalist, to give me their 5K data [pace, SPM] showing better results on slides. It James G is correct, there should be bunches of you.

[Galeere]

Well, there certainly seems to be much conflicting information about the relative difficulty of using slides or static. The article referenced by Steve Roedde clearly shows the increased difficulty of slides. James G through his mathematical power analysis shows that slides should be easier.

I have to go with what I experience. At this point, I'm not even close to my static numbers while using slides. My best 5K this winter was 18:13, a tough effort. Yesterday, a pretty tough effort on slides yielded 19:01. Familiarity is an issue, but not 4.8 s/500m. Also, while it is true that I do all of my erging in the 28-30 SPM range and no low rate work, it is quite possible that my fitness level will not let me do 35 SPM with the necessary power. I think that I'm becoming even more impressed with Steve's 60+ LWt WRs, because he did them on slides with times better than he has done on static. Obviously, he is comfortable with high SPM.

I'm still waiting for a regular Joe Blow rower on these forums, not an ex Olympic medalist, to give me their 5K data [pace, SPM] showing better results on slides. It James G is correct, there should be bunches of you.

Nope, as I do not own a set of slides and will not do so in the near future. Reasons: I am an amateur-non-OTW-erger with no drive to do experiments on that issue for which I do not have the space either.
When Eric Murray did a 5k-WR last year on slides he commented that he could not have done that pace/time on a static erg though. He seems to be experienced enough to be able to place judgement on that. Of course that does not mean that other ergers might feel differently about it. But IMO it is a joke that concept2 allows both statics and sliders to enter WR-times (except for the 2k). It´s a different piece of Equipment so any records/race Performances should be noted seperately.

[Balkan boy]

I'm still waiting for a regular Joe Blow rower on these forums, not an ex Olympic medalist, to give me their 5K data [pace, SPM] showing better results on slides. It James G is correct, there should be bunches of you.

The other day I was contemplating weather to buy a set of slides.
I'm very tempted by them so I can reduce the impact on the body and be more technically proficient. In the end, the high price made me decide against it. For a bit more money I can get a SkiErg. Maybe some day, but not soon.

[hjs]

I'm still waiting for a regular Joe Blow rower on these forums, not an ex Olympic medalist, to give me their 5K data [pace, SPM] showing better results on slides. It James G is correct, there should be bunches of you.

The other day I was contemplating weather to buy a set of slides.
I'm very tempted by them so I can reduce the impact on the body and be more technically proficient. In the end, the high price made me decide against it. For a bit more money I can get a SkiErg. Maybe some day, but not soon.

There are not manny, slides are very much for serious otw guys, and slides are now being pushed out by the dynamic. Looking at what otw guys do, the most profit the slide/dynamic gives is more rate. If you already rate higher on the fixed erg that advantage will proberly be less.
Also you proberly need some time to get used to the dynamic style. I only once hopped on a dynamic erg for a few minutes and certainly could not right away match my grounded pace. Also could hardly control my rating, which was a good bit higher. Only having to bend the legs/moving the back instead of moving the whole bodymass back and forth is easier.

And looking at it in a simply way, on a grounded erg we have to push our body uphill on the rail, sildes/dynamic don,t have that, so this saves energy. Now you have to transfer that safed energy in a good enough technique and get it in the flywheel.