Cant keep seat under me

[markinnb]

those muscular legs are creating your lift. your arm-pull cannot catch up to the leg-push drive. your arm pull comes in too early.
Also as G-dub mentioned, the angle of leg push is iimportant- yours appears to be a bit above what G-Dub recommended- along the rail.
the timing of the different components of the stroke is off: your legs are pushing real hard, then you may be bringing in your arms at a point where you can't pull the handle to continue with the backward drive speed. So you are being "caught" right then and there- your legs are propelling you ( and the seat ) backwards, you try to pull with the arms but can't generate the power so you end up being lifted forward off the seat due to the differing speeds and force requirements.
I believe that if you wait a bit longer to pull with your arms, the problem will fix itself. GEt the torso involved prior to the arm involvment.

people will tell you different ratios but it could be 60-30-10 legs torso arms... or 70-20-10. or whatever.

as everyone said, it's the timing that is important.

Those legs: are you/were you a sprinter / cyclist ?

[markinnb]

Managed to find a little time. Being totally honest, Im not trying hard in the video and at that level of effort I can prevent lifting off the seat pretty easily by keeping the handle lower. Im only putting out 400ish Watts, at 650ish im not thinking about anything other than pulling and it really hurts when your bony butt lands at a free fall on the rail. Anyway, thank you for any input.

https://youtu.be/v0pvlfe8WWQ

only putting out 400 Watts .. and up to 650 Watt pulls.

I am not experienced with such wattage ( Ed, Ross, Shawn, Henry and a few others know much more about this than I do ) - but you may be in store for some back injuries if you are creating that much power/ force off the drive then getting your torso/back involved to maintain that power throughout the stroke . I say that because you "aren't' able to keep up the drive force created by your leg-push with your torso and arms.

so you may want to look into building up back & glutes.

What distance are you rowing at those specified watts? what was your stroke rate for those. ? Those wattages suggest that you are hitting pace of 1:21 - 1:35 or close to those.

[jackarabit]

Shame not to be able to produce that impressive wattage for two consecutive strokes! Definitely a candidate for a seatbelt.

[left coaster]

I kept waiting for you to smack your head on the wall behind you. What do you do when it's time to really lay back on a few super hard pulls?

I agree about your feet, they seem really high. After watching it a couple times the angles seem wrong, and that you're basically leveraging off the handle and elevating your body. I'd place money on lower foot position and lower drag to solve your problem. I started with a high drag but now do most of my work at 4.5, speed and power rather than just power - your body speed actually seems quite slow compared to the power output you report. more speed. Over time I also moved my foot position down, now I'm one spot from the bottom, works great.

[markinnb]

Lower the drag factor before you break your back.

work on improving your stroke technique at this lower df.

you are not matching a proper stroke rate with the selected drag factor that would correspond to your physique / abilities.

It's probably my eyes deceiving me, but your rower appears to back up directly against a wall. that's hardcore man.
not wise actually.

Why are you dropping your hands into your lap in the middle of your stroke? it looks as if you are trying to get max force from your legs on the upcoming stroke. at wide open damper full df.

if true, then your legs are writing a cheque that your torso and arms can't cash.

What are you attempting to do?
a 500 meter all out? .. or 2000 m ?

[Tim K.]

Everyone, thank you so much for your input. Once someone points it out it becomes so much easier to see!

I moved the feet up because that helped but was probably just a partial solution to a symptom. Will move them back down and work on legs-back-arms timing. I watched it before I posted it and thought it was ok, had to have everyone point it out before I really looked hard at it to see it.

Sprinted and cycled in high school, body building till I was 25, at one time I was 199 lbs, never quite made 200. Loved leg and arm day. Nothing since then (I got married and had kids) Got depressed, anxious was diagnosed with ADHD prescribed lots of drugs nothing worked, till now. No drugs, just row my ask off for 20-30 min and Im good

The fastest average I have ever done a 500 in is 1:38. I fall on my face at about 250-300m. Around 35 spm

I had thought about a seat belt of some kind but if they dont come with one I figured I probably shouldnt need one. Probably wont, just need to get myself under control.

You know left coaster, I thought I had lots of room. Just went back and watched, didnt realize how close I get I may slide it ahead a few inches.

Thanks again!

Edit
Markinnb: its a way for me to manage stroke rate, it slows me down. I end up rowing 30 spm otherwise.

I dont really have any goals, I just love the feeling and it manages the issues I had up until a year or so ago.

[markinnb]

you are going to end on the other side of the rowing machine if you keep with this style of rowing.
head first over the flywheel. if not a face plant into the thing.

so you are purposefully stopping your stroke at the midpoint to allow the flywheel to slow down even more so that you can engage your legs .

this is creating much of the problem that you are experiencing: as everyone has said, you are propelling yourself backwards then you are fetching up suddenly when your arms engage with the handle. so it's like falling down, but you are falling up.

it seems to me that your ratios are : legs legs legs legs...arms... then when the resistance on the handle is minimal, you lean backwards a bit. you may be getting to 11 O'clock. maybe 10:30 . but in any event, your timing may be a bit off. and it won't take much: 0.3 seconds difference in the cycle means a lot: your arms are trying to keep up with the same amount of force that your legs generated.

The likelihood of your arms being able to keep up with your legs , especially at that high of a df & low rating is minimal.
so something has to change.
You'll either end up with strained tendons ( forearm and/or biceps ), shoulders or injured lower back & spine issues. or combination.

you are playing a risky game. I trust that you have thought all of this out and considered everything that there is to consider.

I think that everyone has or will tell you to :

1. drop the drag factor to 140 or thereabouts.
2. figure out a better rating.
and
3. figure out how to row with the correct technique
.
a common mistake is to have the rowing maching hopscotch across the room .. or ..for the rower to pitch himself/herself forward into the wheel ( too much leg impulse that is caught, as you have discovered )

you have been blessed with those legs ( by hard work ) and yet they are in your way.

There's several guys on here who do 500's with full open damper . they use a higher rating with this. And they have prepared themselves for this style of rowing with back training, and other full body exercises. Some do rehab or preventative things as well. stretching, yoga , rollers and whatever else.

Others have incurred injuries despite doing all this stuff. What you are doing is quite demanding on your body.

[Tim K.]

so you are purposefully stopping your stroke at the midpoint to allow the flywheel to slow down even more so that you can engage your legs .

this is creating much of the problem that you are experiencing: as everyone has said, you are propelling yourself backwards then you are fetching up suddenly when your arms engage with the handle. so it's like falling down, but you are falling up.

I think we are talking about different things. I was talking about tapping my knees during the recovery. I did that a couple of times but thats it. I watched again and didnt see me dropping my hands during the drive, what point in the video do I do this?

Thank you for all input. I really appreciate the time and effort!

[markinnb]

this knee tapping:
at the 23- then 25 seconds prior to the huge pull at 32-33 seconds that lifts you off the seat.
we are talking about the same thing.
I've only seen that sort of thing once or twice and it's rarely if ever a good idea.
at one lift-off, you appear to be engaging your arms and legs at the same time or too closely, launching yourself into the air.

your timing is off if you have to resort to this knee tapping. I said that you were dropping your hands into your lap , you are actually putting your hands on your knees. it seemed out of the ordinary to me. I didn't mean that you were stopping. sorry about the confusion if any existed.
In any event, it is not a good tactic for what you are trying to do.
It is better to learn the proper method of maintaining a consistent stroke rating.

Rather than do this tactic, you should learn proper timing for each rating scale: rating ...18,20, 22, 24, etc.
your rowpro has a function that tells you the time during acceleration . There is a thread somewhere with Bisqueet ( sp ) that deals with that rowpro thing.
Many people prefer a 1 second drive and 2 second recovery phase. or 0.6 and 2.4. or some variation. ( if on that rating )
as an example, with a 3 second stroke there is a period of time on the drive ( away from the flywheel, then quick hands off, hands go over the straight legs ( close enough anyway ) then a period of time on the recovery back to the flywheel.
Among other things, you are teaching yourself to bend your knees first then move your hands over them.
I would suggest to you what has been suggested to me : go back to learn proper rowing technique.

[Bob S.]

damper setting far too high. check out:

http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... etting-101

especially this section:

"We recommend starting out on a damper setting of 3–5. Really focus on technique, and as you improve, you may find that a lower damper setting gives you the best workout and results."

[Tim K.]

Thanks everyone! Feeling pretty humble right now so Im going to go to work and Ill report back for a re-evaluation in a bit.

[rowingmillie]

Maybe try using a concept2 seat pad? I find I 'stick' to the seat pad more than I do the seat without a seat pad

[left coaster]

Got depressed, anxious was diagnosed with ADHD prescribed lots of drugs nothing worked, till now. No drugs, just row my ask off for 20-30 min and Im good

Tim, I really appreciate hearing stories like this. I study exercise and cognition and there is lots and lots of research supporting what you're doing. Exercise is considered an 'arousal inducing stressor', which means that it increases dopamine and epinephrine projection into the frontal lobes. From an attention/executive function perspective, this helps us 'hold attentional set' aka focus, following short bouts of exercise. It has a similar effect as the meds (which also increase dopamine), but with actual health benefits and an increased sense of well being. Thanks for sharing!

[Alissa]

Tim, thank you very much for posting the video. Here's what I see (and what occurs to me ).

1. You're overcompressing on a few strokes. See, for example, the catch at 1:21. Your knee is clearly in front of (to the right of) your ankle. Not a lot, but you have to recover your knee back to a behind-the-ankle position before you can really begin your drive. It's wasted time, motion (going forward) & effort (coming back to the beginning-of-drive position).

2. I see that you're strapped in. Not that there's a problem with that, but I'm guessing you're pulling hard against the straps. Rowing strapless may help as you sort out your stroke.

3. Hamstring flexibility/seat position/stability of torso. With your shirt down, I can't really tell if you're sitting on your (so-called) "sitz bones", or behind them. Given that it looks as if your hamstrings may not be too flexible, I'm guessing that you're sitting behind them. At any rate it looks as if the pivot point for your backswing is the top of your hipbone, instead of from the place where your thigh-bone inserts into your hip. If you are sitting "behind your sitz bones" it is almost impossible to keep your entire torso/arms/shoulder stable as a connection to the handle. (The more you can increase your flexibility, the better your catch position can be for the beginning portion of the drive, and the longer your leg drive can be!

Take a look at the Flip Luisi's rowing technique video. It's an animation with lots of good thoughts about technique. It seems to me that your back and arms are starting at about the same time.

4. You're starting to open up your back and use your arms well before your legs are down. Your arms/back are not as strong as your legs...you're limiting your leg drive to what your arms/back can do. Take a look at 0:51 for an example.

You might want to try some "legs only" rowing to find the place where you want to engage your back. Create the stable torso at the catch position with arms extended (see the Flip Luisi video), then maintain that position--don't add the back swing/arm pull. Essentially, while we talk of "pulling the handle" what we're really doing for the first part of the drive is pushing hard with the legs. (Very similar to a horizontal leg press.) You'll feel like there's an abrupt "drop-off" at the end of the leg portion of the drive. Do that several times so that you know where in the drive you get that feeling. You want the leg drive to be as long as possible (before you bring in the back)...once you have a feel for where the drop-off happens, add the back-swing to "bridge" that drop-off. You'll find that you've moved that drop-off back. It will be "smaller", but there will still be one without the arms. And it's to avoid that drop-off that you bring the arms in.

HTH,

Alissa

[Tim K.]

Maybe try using a concept2 seat pad? I find I 'stick' to the seat pad more than I do the seat without a seat pad

Thank you for the suggestion. Ill give that a try if this pain in the a$$ technique thing doesn't pan out.......