Just to add a little reality to that post, the "low-carb" diet that is being recommended in that paper by Gower at UAB is 41% carb, versus the control diet of 55% carb. At 2500 calories a day, 41% is 250g or carb per day. Which is so far from the ketogenic diet requirement of 30g per day that it is laughable. So just to be clear, that paper isn't supporting a ketogenic diet, it is supporting a modest reduction in carb and a diet with a moderate amount of carb from natural (primarily unrefined) sources. Which is exactly what I said I supported, and exactly what I said I was eating.
Type 2 diabetes and victory
Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
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Shawn Baker
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Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
JAG, I sincerely think it's great that you've managed to avoid any of the multitude of known diabetic complication and can minimize the need for insulin following a moderate carb diet. I think the salient points that the article introduced were the following (as taken from the article)
The 12 points of evidence, backed up by clinical studies, are:
High blood sugar is the most salient feature of diabetes. Dietary carbohydrate restriction has the greatest effect on decreasing blood glucose levels.
During the epidemics of obesity and Type 2 diabetes, caloric increases have been due almost entirely to increased carbohydrates.
Benefits of dietary carbohydrate restriction do not require weight loss.
Although weight loss is not required for benefit, no dietary intervention is better than carbohydrate restriction for weight loss.
Adherence to low-carbohydrate diets in people with Type 2 diabetes is at least as good as adherence to any other dietary interventions and frequently issignificantly better.
Replacement of carbohydrates with proteins is generally beneficial.
Dietary total and saturated fats do not correlate with risk of cardiovascular disease.
Plasma-saturated fatty acids are controlled by dietary carbohydrates more than by dietary lipids.
The best predictor of microvascular and, to a lesser extent, macrovascular complications in patients with Type 2 diabetes is glycemic control (HbA1c).
Dietary carbohydrate restriction is the most effective method of reducing serum triglycerides and increasing high-density lipoprotein.
Patients with Type 2 diabetes on carbohydrate-restricted diets reduce and frequently eliminate medication. People with Type 1 usually require less insulin.
Intensive glucose-lowering by dietary carbohydrate restriction has no side effects comparable to the effects of intensive pharmacologic treatment
I find that many type 2 diabetics and pre diabetics simply find that even moderate carbohydrate intake does not allow them to come off meds and regain their health- Often they just slowly get worse and wind up taking more and more drugs- remember type 1 and type 2 diabetes are just about completely opposite diseases when it come to insulin production and insulin resistance (although with time some will develop features of both)- what is your suggestion to those type 2 diabetics that follow a diet similar to yours but still continue to get sicker?
The 12 points of evidence, backed up by clinical studies, are:
High blood sugar is the most salient feature of diabetes. Dietary carbohydrate restriction has the greatest effect on decreasing blood glucose levels.
During the epidemics of obesity and Type 2 diabetes, caloric increases have been due almost entirely to increased carbohydrates.
Benefits of dietary carbohydrate restriction do not require weight loss.
Although weight loss is not required for benefit, no dietary intervention is better than carbohydrate restriction for weight loss.
Adherence to low-carbohydrate diets in people with Type 2 diabetes is at least as good as adherence to any other dietary interventions and frequently issignificantly better.
Replacement of carbohydrates with proteins is generally beneficial.
Dietary total and saturated fats do not correlate with risk of cardiovascular disease.
Plasma-saturated fatty acids are controlled by dietary carbohydrates more than by dietary lipids.
The best predictor of microvascular and, to a lesser extent, macrovascular complications in patients with Type 2 diabetes is glycemic control (HbA1c).
Dietary carbohydrate restriction is the most effective method of reducing serum triglycerides and increasing high-density lipoprotein.
Patients with Type 2 diabetes on carbohydrate-restricted diets reduce and frequently eliminate medication. People with Type 1 usually require less insulin.
Intensive glucose-lowering by dietary carbohydrate restriction has no side effects comparable to the effects of intensive pharmacologic treatment
I find that many type 2 diabetics and pre diabetics simply find that even moderate carbohydrate intake does not allow them to come off meds and regain their health- Often they just slowly get worse and wind up taking more and more drugs- remember type 1 and type 2 diabetes are just about completely opposite diseases when it come to insulin production and insulin resistance (although with time some will develop features of both)- what is your suggestion to those type 2 diabetics that follow a diet similar to yours but still continue to get sicker?
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Twitter @SBakerMD
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Shawn Baker
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Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
http://www.menshealth.com/health/the-cure-for-diabetes
And just to add, this notion of treating diabetes has been around before insulin was invented, easier (and more profitable) just to give out pills
And just to add, this notion of treating diabetes has been around before insulin was invented, easier (and more profitable) just to give out pills
50 y/o 6'5, 243lbs
Twitter @SBakerMD
Instagram shawnbaker1967
Twitter @SBakerMD
Instagram shawnbaker1967
Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Shawn,
I hope you're not suggesting we should be taking our medical advice from "Men's Health" magazine? Have you ever seen journalists get science correct? You took an exerpt from and posted a link to an article written by a journalist about the work of Gower at UAB. Forget the journalist: here is the only paper from a science journal that Gower has published in the past year (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2552 ... $=activity):
"TITLE: A lower-carbohydrate, higher-fat diet reduces abdominal and intermuscular fat and increases insulin sensitivity in adults at risk of type 2 diabetes."
"METHODS: 69 overweight/obese men and women, 53% of whom were European American (EA) and 47% of whom were African American (AA), were provided with 1 of 2 diets (lower-fat diet: 55%, 18%, and 27% of energy from carbohydrate, protein, and fat, respectively; lower-carbohydrate diet: 43%, 18%, and 39%, respectively) for 8 wk at a eucaloric level and 8 wk at a hypocaloric level."
"CONCLUSION: A modest reduction in dietary carbohydrate [from 55% to 43%] has beneficial effects on body composition, fat distribution, and glucose metabolism."
So yes, a MODEST reduction in dietary carb consumption and overall calories was beneficial. But there is nothing in her results to support anything approaching a ketogenic diet. And as I pointed out before, 43% of calories from a 2500 calorie total would be more than 250g carb per day. Again, not even approaching a ketogenic diet. Why are you so adamant that it is necessary for a diabetic to eat a ketogenic diet? Especially when virtually no one is capable of maintaining a ketogenic diet for the long-term?
I hope you're not suggesting we should be taking our medical advice from "Men's Health" magazine? Have you ever seen journalists get science correct? You took an exerpt from and posted a link to an article written by a journalist about the work of Gower at UAB. Forget the journalist: here is the only paper from a science journal that Gower has published in the past year (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2552 ... $=activity):
"TITLE: A lower-carbohydrate, higher-fat diet reduces abdominal and intermuscular fat and increases insulin sensitivity in adults at risk of type 2 diabetes."
"METHODS: 69 overweight/obese men and women, 53% of whom were European American (EA) and 47% of whom were African American (AA), were provided with 1 of 2 diets (lower-fat diet: 55%, 18%, and 27% of energy from carbohydrate, protein, and fat, respectively; lower-carbohydrate diet: 43%, 18%, and 39%, respectively) for 8 wk at a eucaloric level and 8 wk at a hypocaloric level."
"CONCLUSION: A modest reduction in dietary carbohydrate [from 55% to 43%] has beneficial effects on body composition, fat distribution, and glucose metabolism."
So yes, a MODEST reduction in dietary carb consumption and overall calories was beneficial. But there is nothing in her results to support anything approaching a ketogenic diet. And as I pointed out before, 43% of calories from a 2500 calorie total would be more than 250g carb per day. Again, not even approaching a ketogenic diet. Why are you so adamant that it is necessary for a diabetic to eat a ketogenic diet? Especially when virtually no one is capable of maintaining a ketogenic diet for the long-term?
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Shawn Baker
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Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Ok, I'll repeat again- I've not said that EVRY diabetic needs to drop carbs to the level of ketosis, but clearly SOME do much better when they do, when it comes to improving most features of the type 2 disease- there are now thousands of patients that have seen dramatic improvement to include getting off all diabetes meds by following various very low carbohydrate schemes (Banting, ketogenic, "ketogenic paleo", intermittent fasting etc...) there s a growing body of source literature looking a very low carb diets and showing quite a bit of success with various conditions. http://download.springer.com/static/pdf ... 915f50a4b1
This one demonstrates the improved efficacy of a ketogenic diet with regard to diabetes compared to a low glycemic diet. Just to reiterate, a very low carbohydrate approach MIGHT be worth experimenting with for SOME people (with or without diabetes)- if you are a diabetic it would be best to do it in conjunction with your physician to help wean you of meds if needed. Anyway, JAG it's would seem clear that you disagree with anyone trying a very low carb approach and that's fine- I would suggest again that people should experiment and see what works for their particular situation.
This one demonstrates the improved efficacy of a ketogenic diet with regard to diabetes compared to a low glycemic diet. Just to reiterate, a very low carbohydrate approach MIGHT be worth experimenting with for SOME people (with or without diabetes)- if you are a diabetic it would be best to do it in conjunction with your physician to help wean you of meds if needed. Anyway, JAG it's would seem clear that you disagree with anyone trying a very low carb approach and that's fine- I would suggest again that people should experiment and see what works for their particular situation.
50 y/o 6'5, 243lbs
Twitter @SBakerMD
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left coaster
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Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Jag, it seems that this approach to managing diabetes is creating some cognitive dissonance for you. If people can fast, or go ketogenic for a while, and improve their health and diabetes status, what difference does it make for you? You can choose to believe the information, or not. I understand that thinking flexibly about this matter after 40 years of convincing yourself you are doing the right thing could be difficult.
As mentioned, I"m not diabetic nor do I show any early warning signs even though it is an issue in my family. I am currently on a calorie restricted ketogenic diet for 10-12 days with the aim of cutting some weight (about 10 pounds) and to thin out my liver and pancreas a bit. Humans evolved to thrive during periods of calorie depletion and prolonged physical activity. Challenging our bodies in this manner promotes health and longevity (this is my area of doctoral research). Diabetic or not, fasting/calorie restriction is good for us, especially if our liver and pancreas has gotten fatty from our over processed, mass market carbohydrate rich diets. We definitely do not need 40% carbs in our diet to be healthy, so why not cut back to 20%, or 10%, if it brings the possibility of improved health? I understand why you might continue to be resistant to the idea, but respectfully disagree with your position.
As mentioned, I"m not diabetic nor do I show any early warning signs even though it is an issue in my family. I am currently on a calorie restricted ketogenic diet for 10-12 days with the aim of cutting some weight (about 10 pounds) and to thin out my liver and pancreas a bit. Humans evolved to thrive during periods of calorie depletion and prolonged physical activity. Challenging our bodies in this manner promotes health and longevity (this is my area of doctoral research). Diabetic or not, fasting/calorie restriction is good for us, especially if our liver and pancreas has gotten fatty from our over processed, mass market carbohydrate rich diets. We definitely do not need 40% carbs in our diet to be healthy, so why not cut back to 20%, or 10%, if it brings the possibility of improved health? I understand why you might continue to be resistant to the idea, but respectfully disagree with your position.
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46
"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"
6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015
"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"
6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015
Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Left coaster, thanks but there's no "cognitive dissonance" on my behalf, nor am I "inflexible", nor do I lie to myself about the "truth", where the "truth" is apparently that every human needs to eat a ketogenic diet. Really???
I think you missed the main thrust of this conversation. Neither I nor the OP are trying to lose weight - we are trying to manage our diabetes.
A ketogenic diet is a highly restrictive diet. Any restrictive diet can be used to lose weight, so I imagine it will be possible for you to lose weight if you stick with the ketogenic diet and more importantly if you eat fewer calories. Of course there are other ways to lose weight, but if you want to use the ketogenic diet that is perfectly reasonable. But if and when you have lost the weight, do you really think you need to spend the rest of your life eating this highly restrictive diet, with no fruit, no bread, no corn, no tomato sauce, etc.? Because that is what you seem to be saying to me - that even though I am normal weight, in good health, and in good control of my diabetes, that I should be eating a ketogenic diet every day for the rest of my life. It isn't ME who is being inflexible - it is YOU who are telling me that I need to eat ketogenic even though there is absolutely no reason to do so.
And Shawn, I agree that for diabetes, as for everything, that it is important to keep trying things until you find something that works for you. And that should include everything - medication, exercise, and diet. Eating a ketogenic diet is pretty far down on the list of things I would consider trying, but if its higher on your list, that's fine too.
I think you missed the main thrust of this conversation. Neither I nor the OP are trying to lose weight - we are trying to manage our diabetes.
A ketogenic diet is a highly restrictive diet. Any restrictive diet can be used to lose weight, so I imagine it will be possible for you to lose weight if you stick with the ketogenic diet and more importantly if you eat fewer calories. Of course there are other ways to lose weight, but if you want to use the ketogenic diet that is perfectly reasonable. But if and when you have lost the weight, do you really think you need to spend the rest of your life eating this highly restrictive diet, with no fruit, no bread, no corn, no tomato sauce, etc.? Because that is what you seem to be saying to me - that even though I am normal weight, in good health, and in good control of my diabetes, that I should be eating a ketogenic diet every day for the rest of my life. It isn't ME who is being inflexible - it is YOU who are telling me that I need to eat ketogenic even though there is absolutely no reason to do so.
And Shawn, I agree that for diabetes, as for everything, that it is important to keep trying things until you find something that works for you. And that should include everything - medication, exercise, and diet. Eating a ketogenic diet is pretty far down on the list of things I would consider trying, but if its higher on your list, that's fine too.
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left coaster
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Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Jag, if you cure the diabetes by fasting or going Keto for a while then you don't need to maintain the diet, do you? You post as though you have not actually reviewed the resources provided.
Also, I've never been a proponent of maintaining a full ketogenic diet, I agree that it is too restrictive for most to keep with -- if you read, and remembered, my posts you would understand this. I've also met many, many people who will duck and weave and come up with every possible excuse to not integrate new information into their mental schema of how they believe things work. Usually there is an element of arousal with this, a state of being that impairs executive function beyond the baseline metabolic issues.
I'm going to leave this thread alone going forward, good luck with whatever you choose.
Also, I've never been a proponent of maintaining a full ketogenic diet, I agree that it is too restrictive for most to keep with -- if you read, and remembered, my posts you would understand this. I've also met many, many people who will duck and weave and come up with every possible excuse to not integrate new information into their mental schema of how they believe things work. Usually there is an element of arousal with this, a state of being that impairs executive function beyond the baseline metabolic issues.
I'm going to leave this thread alone going forward, good luck with whatever you choose.
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46
"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"
6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015
"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"
6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015
Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Still going strong my side, packing more calories a day than before, feeling better and not starving with better bgl's.
I did attack the Xmas trifle and malva puddings though
without any shame haha.
I am actually not finding it to difficult to eat this way.
Seems even when I have some carbs now, the insulin seems to be more effective, if that's even possible. Maybe placebo.
Anyway merry Xmas and best wishes for the new year to all.
I did attack the Xmas trifle and malva puddings though
without any shame haha.I am actually not finding it to difficult to eat this way.
Seems even when I have some carbs now, the insulin seems to be more effective, if that's even possible. Maybe placebo.
Anyway merry Xmas and best wishes for the new year to all.
Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Im not about to read all 7 pages because I have spent the last year and a half explaining my diet choice to family who think Im stupid for eating 75% of my daily calories from fat and eliminating potatoes, pasta, rice, bread, all the good healthy whole grains etc from my diet. I have been told Im going to make myself sick. Well, I wasnt "unhealthy" before but didnt feel well and spent the previous 10-15 years trying to figure out why. I stumbled across these two guys (link below) and finally someone in the world of nutrition made sense to me.
Dont bother responding to my post if you disagree, its falling on deaf ears as I dont care what you have to say, you are ignorant. I used to measure my ketones daily, dont any more as Im pretty dialed in and as far as Im concerned its the only way to live. Than said, we live and die by our choices and this quite literally is a life and death choice. I firmly believe Im on the winning side as I have never in my life felt better than I do today. All of my labs have improved as well (I wasnt "bad" before). Resting heart rate is ~ 8 beats higher and when rowing my heart rate is higher at the same load when I have cheated on the diet the day before.
These two guys are only ones you need to listen to and the performance benefits discussed may be of interested to the distance guys as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC_qBC1EEvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NvFyGGXYiI
There are certainly others of the same mind but these two have been working on and studying the subject for many years and a lot of others have jumped on their work and made it their own.
I want to make sure Im clear on this. I am not telling anyone how to eat. I dont care how you choose to live your life, but get educated and actually know what is involved and why. You will probably find it isnt actually bad or restrictive at all, in fact, eating all that fat is pretty great! If you want to live your life dependent on insulin, go ahead, I dont care, I have no interest in living your life for you, living my own life takes up all my time.
Dont bother responding to my post if you disagree, its falling on deaf ears as I dont care what you have to say, you are ignorant. I used to measure my ketones daily, dont any more as Im pretty dialed in and as far as Im concerned its the only way to live. Than said, we live and die by our choices and this quite literally is a life and death choice. I firmly believe Im on the winning side as I have never in my life felt better than I do today. All of my labs have improved as well (I wasnt "bad" before). Resting heart rate is ~ 8 beats higher and when rowing my heart rate is higher at the same load when I have cheated on the diet the day before.
These two guys are only ones you need to listen to and the performance benefits discussed may be of interested to the distance guys as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC_qBC1EEvw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NvFyGGXYiI
There are certainly others of the same mind but these two have been working on and studying the subject for many years and a lot of others have jumped on their work and made it their own.
I want to make sure Im clear on this. I am not telling anyone how to eat. I dont care how you choose to live your life, but get educated and actually know what is involved and why. You will probably find it isnt actually bad or restrictive at all, in fact, eating all that fat is pretty great! If you want to live your life dependent on insulin, go ahead, I dont care, I have no interest in living your life for you, living my own life takes up all my time.
Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Here we go again. Tim, I am not replying to you (since you made it clear that you don't care what anyone else says). I am responding to your obvious lack of understanding about the disease of diabetes that I have had for 41 years. Let me try again to make this clear - I have Type 1 Diabetes. I do not WANT to live my life dependent on insulin - I have no choice. All Type 1 diabetics are dependent on insulin - it is not a choice, and it does not matter how much or how little fat I eat - I will ALWAYS need to take insulin to stay alive. I cannot "cure" my diabetes by eating ketogenic or any other way. And I am not overweight, and neither is the OP, who was originally diagnosed as a Type 2 diabetic. So please try to gain some understanding of what you are talking about before you accuse other people of being "ignorant", or "uneducated". Read this to get a clue: http://www.webmd.com/diabetes/type-1-di ... s?page=2#4Tim K. wrote: Dont bother responding to my post if you disagree, its falling on deaf ears as I dont care what you have to say, you are ignorant. I used to measure my ketones daily, dont any more as Im pretty dialed in and as far as Im concerned its the only way to live. Than said, we live and die by our choices and this quite literally is a life and death choice. I firmly believe Im on the winning side as I have never in my life felt better than I do today. All of my labs have improved as well (I wasnt "bad" before). Resting heart rate is ~ 8 beats higher and when rowing my heart rate is higher at the same load when I have cheated on the diet the day before.
I want to make sure Im clear on this. I am not telling anyone how to eat. I dont care how you choose to live your life, but get educated and actually know what is involved and why. You will probably find it isnt actually bad or restrictive at all, in fact, eating all that fat is pretty great! If you want to live your life dependent on insulin, go ahead, I dont care, I have no interest in living your life for you, living my own life takes up all my time.
If you are happy with your diet, then by all means keep eating it. As to whether your diet is "restrictive", I consider any diet that prevents me from eating any and all fruits or grains and most vegetables to be highly restrictive. But maybe that's just me.
Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
One of my daughters friends is a type 1. Three of the four children in her family are type 1 (ages 4-13). Up until aprox a year ago they slept in the same bedroom so mom could monitor and maintain them. After I had been living this lifestyle for about 6 months I asked the mom if she had ever heard of it. She did a pile of research (it is her kids after all) and jumped down the rabbit hole. Kids now all have insulin pumps which helps but they all sleep in their own rooms and mom sleeps through the night when she lets herself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSIxNSOn4Dw
There are literally thousands of testimonials out there from type 1 diabetics and the only reason there isnt more is because of fear and ignorance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSIxNSOn4Dw
There are literally thousands of testimonials out there from type 1 diabetics and the only reason there isnt more is because of fear and ignorance.
Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Thx for the videos.
The presentation by J Volek when he mentions the work of Cahill, and people feeling normal with bgl's 1.2 mmol/l (20mg/dl) and one as low as 0.5 mmol/l (9mg/dl)
From 15:30 to about 20:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC_qBC1EEvw
Astonishing.
Typically I start going 'zombie' @ 3 mmol/l. Strangely mid last year with poorly managed T2, I used to start feeling bad (hypo'ish) at around 5.5 mmol/l.
The presentation by J Volek when he mentions the work of Cahill, and people feeling normal with bgl's 1.2 mmol/l (20mg/dl) and one as low as 0.5 mmol/l (9mg/dl)
From 15:30 to about 20:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC_qBC1EEvw
Astonishing.
Typically I start going 'zombie' @ 3 mmol/l. Strangely mid last year with poorly managed T2, I used to start feeling bad (hypo'ish) at around 5.5 mmol/l.
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left coaster
- 2k Poster
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- Joined: September 24th, 2015, 12:43 pm
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Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
Jag, I missed the part where you previously disclosed being type 1. my apologies, this is a different disease and not what I was addressing in my posts. Apparently I had an inattentive moment.
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46
"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"
6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015
"The difficult is what takes a little time; the impossible is what takes a little longer"
6'1", 235, 49yrs, male
Started rowing September 2015
Re: Type 2 diabetes and victory
No problem at all, thanks for taking the time to watch . There are a lot of things that most of us would be shocked to learn about if we just take a little time and open our minds.
Left coaster, its very big of you to take a step back and offer up an apology based on your assumption he was dealing with type 2 instead of type 1. Type 1 and type 2 have different pathogenesis and one results in the inability to produce insulin and the other results in varrying levels of insulin resistance, the outcome and therapy, big picture, are similar. Manage insulin levels. Choice of diet has a profound effect on if and how much medicine you have to take either way.
. There are a lot of things that most of us would be shocked to learn about if we just take a little time and open our minds. Left coaster, its very big of you to take a step back and offer up an apology based on your assumption he was dealing with type 2 instead of type 1. Type 1 and type 2 have different pathogenesis and one results in the inability to produce insulin and the other results in varrying levels of insulin resistance, the outcome and therapy, big picture, are similar. Manage insulin levels. Choice of diet has a profound effect on if and how much medicine you have to take either way.