Pete Plan Autumn 2015

[ericallenboyd]

With your SPM being 18 I would think that is probably a little too low but I am sure others will chime in. Based on what the PP says you should be more around the 22-25 for the long steady rows.

Yesterday, W4D3 pete beginner. 6.5K @ 18SPM UT2 2:41 (2K PB + 30) and HR reached 155 max, which is perfect for me.

I'm having a really hard time with these long (for me) slow rows. I love the aerobic nature of them and don't mind doing them, but I feel like my stroke really deteriorates on them as I'm not using my legs enough to stay at the pace that I want to stay in my aerobic zone. If I start pushing with my legs the way that I do on harder rows my pace/HR get too high. Should I be dropping my stroke rate even further and doing harder strokes using more of my legs? Am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Advice here would be really appreciated.

[mdpfirrman]

Fish - I could be wrong, but I think your question is getting at the heart of the difference between The Wolverine Plan and Pete's Plan (but I'm a newbie and could be way off here). The WP emphasized slower stroke rates than PP. Henry mentioned this above too, talking about getting more "oomph" for each stroke. I may be way off here, but since I've deliberately slowed down, each stroke, even in steady state workouts, should take some effort. The slowing down of the stroke rate should compensate for the strength requirements of each stroke (in terms of HR). The ideal of this type of training is you learn about power from the very low stroke rates (and where power comes from - from the finish, the lower back muscles, even the glutes and hamstrings being engaged). I personally didn't understand squat about power until I slowed down the stroke rate and tried to hit a certain pace - not hard but a little challenging. The hope is you can then fully engage both power and speed come 2K race day, utilizing both your increased aerobic capacity and strength. If you see your HR climbing too high, just notch down the power a bit. I think most don't have your problem. Most, like me, would get too bored at that low of a stroke rate and have a hard time sticking to the plan. I don't know if going below that stroke rate would do you any good. PP would say you're going to slow though. Your HR seems high (to me) with that pace being +30 (but HR is such an individual thing).

[G-dub]

Fish, it sounds like you need to get in better shape, or you heart rate is drifting (creeping) a lot which can also mean you need to get in better shape (or that you are dehydrated, or hot, or...). It is not clear to me either how you keep your HR down while you are also creating overload that will lead to better fitness. You have to push the envelope some. All I can provide is what I've done, which as we have seen is not always great! One idea is to pick your pace (UT2) and stay with it for 20-30 minutes at a crack for awhile until you get more fit and your HR comes down to it. So don't look at HR - if your breathing is still calm, you are still doing good. My guess is that if you are 2K plus 30 on pace as you say, you are not overloading yourself such that it will hurt your hard work anyway. Another thing I've done is to do 20-30 on the rower and then ran or rode stationary bike for another 20-30 so that I was adding cardio - the bike is especially great for being able to stay on a HR. And I've done 2 sessions a day so that I got say an hour total out of two 30 minute sessions. But I personally wouldn't keep lowering the rate. You may have to soften up your stroke a little to match the UT2 pace, but I recon you aren't fit enough yet to slog out a low rate powerful stroke and keep it aerobic yet. And you can do work that builds power on a separate day.

How long can you usually go before your HR gets too high? If HR training is new to you, getting used to HR creep can be frustrating. You need to be well hydrated and as cool as can be to help keep it from creeping too much. And the more fit you get you can go longer with a steady HR and the creep isn't as high.

[Fish out of water]

Fish - I could be wrong, but I think your question is getting at the heart of the difference between The Wolverine Plan and Pete's Plan (but I'm a newbie and could be way off here). The WP emphasized slower stroke rates than PP. Henry mentioned this above too, talking about getting more "oomph" for each stroke. I may be way off here, but since I've deliberately slowed down, each stroke, even in steady state workouts, should take some effort. The slowing down of the stroke rate should compensate for the strength requirements of each stroke (in terms of HR). The ideal of this type of training is you learn about power from the very low stroke rates (and where power comes from - from the finish, the lower back muscles, even the glutes and hamstrings being engaged). I personally didn't understand squat about power until I slowed down the stroke rate and tried to hit a certain pace - not hard but a little challenging. The hope is you can then fully engage both power and speed come 2K race day, utilizing both your increased aerobic capacity and strength. If you see your HR climbing too high, just notch down the power a bit. I think most don't have your problem. Most, like me, would get too bored at that low of a stroke rate and have a hard time sticking to the plan. I don't know if going below that stroke rate would do you any good. PP would say you're going to slow though. Your HR seems high (to me) with that pace being +30 (but HR is such an individual thing).

Thanks for the advice. In terms of my HR being too slow at +30, certainly may be but keep in mind that +30 when you're max speed is as slow as mine is relative to the rest of you, in terms of watts it's not as slow. It's the equivalent of +24 for someone who rows at 1:50 splits for their 2K time and still lower than that for someone who's faster still.

I think it's clear that I still have a long way to go with my fitness, but I feel like my fitness is stronger than my rowing technique/skill, which is part of the problem I'm running into I think. But it could just be that I'm in horrible shape. My max HR is over 200 so I think my HR tends to be faster than average on general when working out, but I'm not really sure what I'm doing obviously. It seems that slowing my stroke rate is not the answer, but maybe I need to get some significant part of my cardio off the rower and use the erg for focusing on increasing my form and power. It's just hard as I'm somewhat time limited at the gym so I have to try and figure out something that works.

[Fish out of water]

Fish, it sounds like you need to get in better shape, or you heart rate is drifting (creeping) a lot which can also mean you need to get in better shape (or that you are dehydrated, or hot, or...). It is not clear to me either how you keep your HR down while you are also creating overload that will lead to better fitness. You have to push the envelope some. All I can provide is what I've done, which as we have seen is not always great! One idea is to pick your pace (UT2) and stay with it for 20-30 minutes at a crack for awhile until you get more fit and your HR comes down to it. So don't look at HR - if your breathing is still calm, you are still doing good. My guess is that if you are 2K plus 30 on pace as you say, you are not overloading yourself such that it will hurt your hard work anyway. Another thing I've done is to do 20-30 on the rower and then ran or rode stationary bike for another 20-30 so that I was adding cardio - the bike is especially great for being able to stay on a HR. And I've done 2 sessions a day so that I got say an hour total out of two 30 minute sessions. But I personally wouldn't keep lowering the rate. You may have to soften up your stroke a little to match the UT2 pace, but I recon you aren't fit enough yet to slog out a low rate powerful stroke and keep it aerobic yet. And you can do work that builds power on a separate day.

How long can you usually go before your HR gets too high? If HR training is new to you, getting used to HR creep can be frustrating. You need to be well hydrated and as cool as can be to help keep it from creeping too much. And the more fit you get you can go longer with a steady HR and the creep isn't as high.

I am very new to the HR training and don't have a HR monitor. I'm just monitoring my HR at the end of my rows using the hand held HR monitor they have hooked up to the treadmills at the gym. Maybe this is completely inaccurate and throwing me off?

[mdpfirrman]

Fish - you probably have a very high HR just genetically like I do. My resting is around 57 and my max is well into the 190s and I'm 51 and I'm not in incredible shape. If you're an outlier on HR, 140s isn't that bad and probably where you should be when doing the rows. Also, I forgot you're 6' 2". Your stroke rate should be a bit slower than mine (or G-Dubs). Honestly sounds like you're doing OK.

[mspina]

Yesterday:
PPB W1D3 (UT2 5000m)
2k+30s, HR well within UT2 range
SPM: 20-22

SLOW but steady - this was not as bad as I thought it would be, as I like hard intervals better than the LSD stuff. But I'm starting up a new series on Netflix (Orange is the New Black) and the time seemed to fly. I would have to slow myself down as I'd naturally want to drift to 2k+20s.

I posted a vid on YouTube if anyone would like to critique form (I'd appreciate it!!!!). Forgive the smut in the background, didn't realize the TV would be in frame!!!! And didn't realize OITNB was a little smutty.... Next time I will smile - I feel like an idiot filming myself. https://youtu.be/kNJh675y9Ko

[mspina]

...You may have to soften up your stroke a little to match the UT2 pace ...

This is exactly what I had to do during my 5k last night. I'd naturally drift to 2k+20s, and have to "soften up" a bit to slow myself down. HR was fine though, it was on the low end of the UT2 range - so maybe I should keep it at 2k+20s for these workouts? I'm going off my CRASH-B 2k pace from last year, so perhaps my PB is a bit faster now....

[Bob S.]

Michelle,

2 items stand out. Knees going past vertical at the catch and hands pausing at the finish.

Bob S,

[jackarabit]

Fish writes:

Thanks for the advice. In terms of my HR being too slow at +30, certainly may be but keep in mind that +30 when you're max speed is as slow as mine is relative to the rest of you, in terms of watts it's not as slow. It's the equivalent of +24 for someone who rows at 1:50 splits for their 2K time and still lower than that for someone who's faster still.

2:11 pace equiv. to 156W av.
2:11+30"=2:41 or 90W

1:50 pace equiv. to 263W av.
1:50+24"=2:14 or 146W

90/156=.61 or 39% reduction of av. power output
146/263=.55 or 45% reduction of av. power output

. . . and a horse runs faster than one that's standing still.

[jackarabit]

@ Michelle vid: No pause at finish and lose the mantis wrists by bringing the handle to sternum and really getting those elbows behind shoulders. Looks solid on stroke sequence.

[G-dub]

Michelle,

2 items stand out. Knees going past vertical at the catch and hands pausing at the finish.

Bob S,

Seems like there could also be a little more hip hinging going forward. Is she too vertical at the catch?

[jackarabit]

Maybe drop those heel cups couple holes to encourage the fwd lean.

[Bob S.]

Fish,

If the pace is too fast for your goal in a long slow piece, don't ease off on the power - lower the rate. Try to keep amount of work done per stroke the same at all rates. In that way your speed is controlled by your stroke rate. There is nothing wrong with stroke rates under 20 spm. The Wolverine plan (from which the Pete Plan was derived) has lots of work at 16 and 18 spm. I generally do all my UT2 pieces at 15 spm. At any higher rate, I would have to use an awfully light pull to keep the pace on target. I wouldn't be getting anything out of the workout. Save the higher rates for AT zones and faster.

[Fish out of water]

Fish writes:

Thanks for the advice. In terms of my HR being too slow at +30, certainly may be but keep in mind that +30 when you're max speed is as slow as mine is relative to the rest of you, in terms of watts it's not as slow. It's the equivalent of +24 for someone who rows at 1:50 splits for their 2K time and still lower than that for someone who's faster still.

2:11 pace equiv. to 156W av.
2:11+30"=2:41 or 90W

1:50 pace equiv. to 263W av.
1:50+24"=2:14 or 146W

90/156=.61 or 39% reduction of av. power output
146/263=.55 or 45% reduction of av. power output

. . . and a horse runs faster than one that's standing still.

My watt calculator is a little off from yours. I get 84 Watts for 2:41 not 90W, which would be a 46% reduction in power and I did some rounding.