Basic training questions

[KenS]

Ergo, I can tell you what works for me on padding (and I receive not a penny for the following endorsements):

I have several pairs of JL Racing's Super Padded Trou:

http://www.jlathletics.com/super-padded ... u/dp/13783

And I have a sorbothane seat pads, also purchased from JL Racing:

http://www.jlathletics.com/sorbothane-seat-pad/dp/10177

They also have a gel seat pad, which was not on offer when I bought the sorbothane pad. The sorbothane pad is very firm (but just forgiving enough for my bony butt). I tried Concept2's seat pad, but it was too soft and actually made things worse. With the extra-padded shorts and the seat pad, I regularly do rows of more than an hour. A year ago I was wondering if I'd ever be able to last more than 30 minutes on the erg.

[Bob S.]

@ ergo sum: I think that the following will give you a better idea of what is going on in the monitor:

http://www.atm.ox.ac.uk/rowing/physics/ergometer.html

Basically, there are 3 magnets in the wheel and a coil sensor mounted along side. The monitor determines the rate at which which the wheel slows down and uses that to determine the amount of work that has been done on the wheel. That information, together with the monitor clock, provides the wattage - the one real value that is displayed, other than time. The others, like distance and pace, are make believe values that are based on the guesstimated speed of a 4x shell with the rowers averaging the wattage calculated by the monitor. I agree that the Calorie value (the upper case C stands for kilo lower case c) is designed for those who are concerned about dieting, but was pointing out that there are a lot of arbitrary assumptions built into it and it shouldn't be taken too literally.

You have a point that it would be nice if monitor actually displayed the work done in each stroke, since that is, indeed, exactly what it is designed to measure (hence the original name, Concept 2 rowing ergometer). Instead, it displays the average wattage over the time of the complete stroke. There is a brand of software, ErgMonitor ( http://www.ps-sport.net/ergmonitor.htm ), that has been available for the C2 machines for over a decade, that made a lot of the other information available stroke by stroke. But it was never compatible with the computer platforms I have used (OS 6 through 10) and, as far as I know, has never been brought up to date for other platforms later than around 2006. Also, it does not include heart rate, which is a sort of monitor add-on.

[ergo sum]

Oct 24 (yesterday) improvement
df=110; Unstrapped
time m pace stroke watt cal/h SPI
24 5879 02:02.40 24 191 955 7.96
--------------------------------------------------
4 967 02:04.00 25 183 930 7.32
4 972 02:03.40 25 186 940 7.44
4 975 02:03.00 25 188 946 7.52
4 980 02:02.40 24 191 956 7.96
4 988 02:01.40 24 195 972 8.13
4 999 02:00.10 25 202 994 8.08

Same concerns as yesterday regarding knees. Back seems less a problem as before and I feel I am sitting up more square than previous rows. Seat pressure still an issue. My stroke seem to plateau at an SPI (W:r) around 8 kW-min without introducing a dubiously high strain on my joints. Due to the knee issue I am going to back off the wattage in the future and train at about 7 KW-min until I can work out what is happening with the knees. I stopped over-shooting vertical knee-ankle alignment two days prior, so I'm unsure why I am feeling my knees being stressed when before with the 191 sf they did not have the problem. I will raise the foot stops one hole higher and see, but I'm wondering if my force will loose efficiency if it is applied too high over the rail.

Thank you Ken for those helpful tips on clothing and pads for the lean guy. The clothes are really pricey so it'd be nice to be sure first they're more than a beautiful "rower's uniform" and address the pressure point well on these hard seats for our less padded seat-bones! I wonder if century bicycle riding 25-30 years ago, but not since then, has contributed to my build's benefits and drawback a little, like your situation. My concern is not so much that and rowing ~1 hours sessions at this point as it is to protect the perineal area from the drive/rock motion. I wonder two things 1) Do the pants and/or pad lessen, or possibly add pressure there by putting by effectively putting more material between body and seat? Maybe I need a pair glute-pads with no chamois in the center to relieve this - a little confused still since you seem to be focused more on the endurance aspect which is something I'll need to worry about when I get to longer times than the present 5 minute warm-up + 24 minutes workout. 2) How does the pad stay in place over the row. I'm currently using the gym's rower so a pad sounds good since I can't do any modifications to their equipment.
---------------------------------------
Bob,
Thanks kindly again! Your numbers' fascination is showing I looked over both links. Thought I'd get some pictures of the magnets you discussed but ended up with a physics lesson The interesting thing about your first link was the discussing at the end on rating. According to that I will gain 10-15 Watts by lowering my rating to the forum members' recommended training levels around 24, even for my somewhat shorter leg length. But when time trialing I'm doomed to need a higher rating to do well for my structure. My unorthodoxed form before that I was comfortable with interestingly was all wrong in a general sense, but actually the multiple 'errors' worked together to give me a safe rowing form though it is nice to be able to bring the vertebrae in alignment with the neck better now on the way to the catch. Your link also cleared up in my mind that it is in fact dissipation which is measured, so getting the area under the curve in Joules requires further numerical approximation just a bit further than whatever algorithms are in use to come up with Watts. But I see no reason why it can't be done and think separating it would be a powerful tool during training.

Yes, whoever said these are ergometers is using marketeer's license in one sense, a very good way you summarized this. They are simply Watt meters, and averaged over debatable intervals at that A very far cry from meter capable of measuring ergs. A mosquito requires more than one erg to fly, so the claims are a little exaggerated to be measuring ergs. I guess Joule-ometer and going jouling (or watting) didn't have the same ring to it! The software link was also very interesting. Interesting in that in no place does the software calculate the joules either in the screenshots on the link or in the manual. The benefit of the software though is to return to the PC monitor the seconds of the drive and seconds of the return, not to mention linear stroke lengths. It is also interesting that Paul, the coach behind the software mentions he used a different time base to calculate watts on the stroke detail than the PM2, and he was right IMO and this was one of my concerns about the PM4. I wonder if Paul's software hasn't been kept current for newer PC's (and Macs!) since he's moved on to other things or maybe because C2 has improved the PM4/5 enough that there isn't a worthwhile market for it... I guess someone could ask him. Too bad he hasn't posted in the forum since 6 years ago.

Thanks very much for those links. Understood your point about about kcal. I can add to that that my rowing form previously utilized far more calories than the PM4 indicated. That I learned by measuring my calories eaten for 1.5 months against my exercise, primarily the C2. When I was on break even, I was still loosing a couple hundred calories additional daily! They were not from the treadmill cool-down, but rather form the high aerobic (and now I learn very inefficient) use of the C2, and then jumping on the treadmill to cool down while prolonging the high aerobic activity residual from erging further. A pretty effective weight loss program without trying!

[KenS]

Same concerns as yesterday regarding knees. Back seems less a problem as before and I feel I am sitting up more square than previous rows. Seat pressure still an issue. My stroke seem to plateau at an SPI (W:r) around 8 kW-min without introducing a dubiously high strain on my joints. Due to the knee issue I am going to back off the wattage in the future and train at about 7 KW-min until I can work out what is happening with the knees. I stopped over-shooting vertical knee-ankle alignment two days prior, so I'm unsure why I am feeling my knees being stressed when before with the 191 sf they did not have the problem. I will raise the foot stops one hole higher and see, but I'm wondering if my force will loose efficiency if it is applied too high over the rail.

Thank you Ken for those helpful tips on clothing and pads for the lean guy. The clothes are really pricey so it'd be nice to be sure first they're more than a beautiful "rower's uniform" and address the pressure point well on these hard seats for our less padded seat-bones! I wonder if century bicycle riding 25-30 years ago, but not since then, has contributed to my build's benefits and drawback a little, like your situation. My concern is not so much that and rowing ~1 hours sessions at this point as it is to protect the perineal area from the drive/rock motion. I wonder two things 1) Do the pants and/or pad lessen, or possibly add pressure there by putting by effectively putting more material between body and seat? Maybe I need a pair glute-pads with no chamois in the center to relieve this - a little confused still since you seem to be focused more on the endurance aspect which is something I'll need to worry about when I get to longer times than the present 5 minute warm-up + 24 minutes workout. 2) How does the pad stay in place over the row. I'm currently using the gym's rower so a pad sounds good since I can't do any modifications to their equipment.

It does seem a bit odd to me that your knees are bothering you more now than when your shins were going beyond vertical. I do seem to recall some minor knee irritation when I first starting working on going deeper at the catch with less forward lean, which I attributed to actually using my legs the way they're supposed to be used. I do stretch my quads and especially my hip flexors after every row now, and I've assumed that's eliminated the minor knee pain I was experiencing.

I must admit any posterior discomfort I've felt has been on the sit bones, not the perineum. The combination of the extra-padded shorts plus the pad plus finding my sweet spot on the seat - which, for me, is toward the front - made longer sessions bearable. I'm having a hard time understanding how your perineum is hitting the seat, as the seat is so firm and broad as to allow my sit bones to keep that part of my anatomy from being compressed. That's a problem I certainly remember from riding and racing a bicycle, but the erg seat hits my butt in a different way than a bicycle seat. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmm.

As to the sorbotane seat pad staying still, the material is quite grippy. When I do short intervals at high intensity I will notice that the pad has moved every so slightly - I mean, maybe a few millimeters.

[jackarabit]

I also experience sore glutes centered on the the ischeal tuberosities. I recall perineal nerve pressure from being literally "on the rivet" in bike TTs but thank my stars haven't encountered it on the erg seat. +1 on the Sore No More Pad. Not cheap but stays put and does its job.

[ergo sum]

Oct 25 improvement
df=110; Unstrapped continuous row
time m pace stroke watt cal/h SPI
28 6642 02:06.40 24 173 895 7.21
--------------------------------------------------
4 948 02:06.50 24 173 893 7.21
4 946 02:06.80 24 171 890 7.13
4 946 02:06.80 24 171 890 7.13
4 948 02:06.50 24 173 893 7.21
4 951 02:06.10 24 174 899 7.25
4 950 02:06.30 24 174 897 7.25
4 956 02:05.50 24 177 909 7.38

Today I lost track and rowed an extra interval (lost count, did 28 min instead of 24 min, as usual with 4 min splits timed separately). Getting good at rating @ 24/min, and held the SPI (W:r) around 7 watt-min per stroke on purpose for knees safety, to see if this is ok, or else I'll need to take some rest days since I don't want to injure myself (Don't know what I'll do with myself after rowing every day for 6 months). I think I might be best off training back at the 6.8 level after careful consideration of what's at stake. Ken, I'm pretty convinced all the rowing in unconventional form got me fit to easily to put out 8 watt-min with the improving form, but my leg muscles around the knees to hold it properly never had the chance to develop the muscle for that and maybe they are being over-driven ... could be what you noticed too? Changing up 3-4 things on the form at once is a little confusing at times as I was warned My old stroke rate index was always 6.8 - 6.9 W-min for the entire row, though more energetic splits, that was due to the 30-31 stroke rate I used to do before the guys in the forum kindly helped me with pointers to improve. I feel a little better today even though I don't like the split times I'll just live with them until I can work this out and be safe since I need problems with the knees like a hole in the head. I made a mistake above about "raising" the feet. I meant lowering the feet. I lowered it all the way the foot rests permitted to the last rubber rung, this time and it seemed to help even better on stopping and giving me a better glide distance along the rail.

Jack, thanks for weighing in on the sore no more pads. Unfortunately, I'm glad to have company with this and the related sit-bones which might be an issue if I took it to an hour too. That pad sounds like a real necessary accessory to make this more comfortable until I get more meat on my assets. Ken I appreciate you sharing your experience with the pad. $51 pad hmm, that's the only drawback. Could either of you tell me accurately the largest length and width measurements? In other words, the size of the rectangle you could put it inside before the rounded cutouts are made. I can run some tests with some other materials I have here I'd like to make the pretty identical size to see how that goes.

Great info, thanks and cheers

[KenS]

seat pad 2.JPG (105.02 KiB) Viewed 6749 times

Jack, thanks for weighing in on the sore no more pads. Unfortunately, I'm glad to have company with this and the related sit-bones which might be an issue if I took it to an hour too. That pad sounds like a real necessary accessory to make this more comfortable until I get more meat on my assets. Ken I appreciate you sharing your experience with the pad. $51 pad hmm, that's the only drawback. Could either of you tell me accurately the largest length and width measurements? In other words, the size of the rectangle you could put it inside before the rounded cutouts are made. I can run some tests with some other materials I have here I'd like to make the pretty identical size to see how that goes.

Great info, thanks and cheers

The seat pad is 30.7 cm wide (exactly as wide as the seat) by 18.6 cm.

I read, I think on the C2 blog, that some folks put a towel on the seat. You just have to make sure it's small enough not to drape onto the slide and get caught in the seat roller.

[ergo sum]

The seat pad is 30.7 cm wide (exactly as wide as the seat) by 18.6 cm.

I read, I think on the C2 blog, that some folks put a towel on the seat. You just have to make sure it's small enough not to drape onto the slide and get caught in the seat roller.

Thanks for the data Ken! Too bad there's barely *not enough* material to make two from a 12 inch square piece of soft polyurethane or I'd pick up a 12" square sheet from McMaster-Carr (It actually is Sorbothane). Maybe there is some sort of good pad available in Walmart that can be cut, I'll look. Meanwhile I have a thin yoga mat (about 1/8") that is torn which I'm going to cut to size. I think it should be a minimum of 3/16" thick (5 mm), but probably 1/4" would be the best. The kneeling garden pad at Walmart is too thick. Thanks for the picture. I'd have put it on backwards!

[Galeere]

That´s the seat pad I am using: http://www.skwoosh.com/category/rowing.html
I am quite happy with it albeit it does not spare the pain entirely on a half marathon. But isn´t pain what tells us to be alive?
Nice to read that you keep up the technique training Ergo. You will get there.....

[ergo sum]

Today's training. Unstrapped. df=110
training targets: 24r 170.4W (SPI=7.1); work on knee flexion angle max of 90º

I'm still in pre-training trying to get the correct motion and the idea was to lower the stroke power index to around 7 W-min which is what I used in my old form so the knee wouldn't be stressed until I work the correct muscle memory to perform the strokes without concentration and the knees don't feel stressed as last few sessions. I used a different machine today which happened to be parallel to a window: what luck. I could see my general reflection. Don't know how I did without that before, it was very helpful. My stroke glide back and forth along the rail seems to only be barely breaking 1 meter which seems too short. I don't know how the drive is supposed to begin anymore! Does the ball of the foot roll into a solid ankle anchored push, or is the rotating about the ankle while getting the chain to catch also considered acceptable form? I get a longer drive if the foot is lower where ankle rotation is necessary that way, but the knee flexion angle has an easier time slipping greater than 90º.

time m pace r W cal/h SPI m/stroke
28 6619 02:06.90 24 171 889 7.13 9.85
---------------------------------------------------------------
4 943 02:07.20 25 170 884 6.80
4 944 02:07.10 23 170 886 7.39
4 947 02:06.70 24 172 892 7.17
4 947 02:06.70 24 172 892 7.17
4 943 02:07.20 24 170 884 7.08
4 944 02:07.10 24 170 886 7.08
4 953 02:05.90 24 175 903 7.29

That´s the seat pad I am using: http://www.skwoosh.com/category/rowing.html
I am quite happy with it albeit it does not spare the pain entirely on a half marathon. But isn´t pain what tells us to be alive?
Nice to read that you keep up the technique training Ergo. You will get there.....

Thanks Hardy for the tip on the less pricey gel cushion and the added encouragement That's an 8"X12" (20cmX30cm) cushion using welded gel pads for $40 ppd and it appears gel that might bunch up a little for the $30 ppd version. Well worth considering and also gives ideas for home made ones. One could take 4" cutouts of sorbathane and weld them to a thin polyurethane piece. Sounds like it would do two things at once: damp the force on the sit-bones and raise the interior between them to avoid compression. Lots of ideas ... thanks very much again.

[jackarabit]

The friction cycle ergometer appeared in the late 19th C. in the form of the Prony Brake, a series of hardwood brake shoes bearing on the exterior surface of an iron-rimmed wheel mounted to the axle of a water wheel under test for the purpose of measuring and comparing power developed by various designs of water wheels and head races. The exercise ergometer appears much later as a punishment for schoolboys and head cases.

[ergo sum]

Today's training. Unstrapped. df=110
training targets: 24r 175.2W (SPI=7.3); more work on knee flexion angle. Max 110º, but never beyond vertical knee-ankle.

time.m....pace..s/m.watt.cal/h.SPI..m/s
28 6689 02:05.50 24 177 908 7.38 9.95
-------------------------------------------------------
4 953 02:05.90 24 175 903 7.29
4 957 02:05.30 24 178 910 7.42
4 957 02:05.30 24 178 910 7.42
4 954 02:05.70 24 176 905 7.33
4 956 02:05.50 24 177 909 7.38
4 954 02:05.70 24 176 905 7.33
4 958 02:05.20 24 178 912 7.42

Tried a little more energy per stroke, upping the SPI from 7.1 to 7.3 W-min, being extremely careful with knee angle with every stroke (tedious), my biggest problem ... and related to that still working out foot placement. Used #3 holes on foot stops, don't yet understand the effect on knees. Lifting heel at the the beginning of drive briefly to maintain knee flex angle with training target, then rolling on to heel. Foot gets a tired of 33 minutes (28 workout plus 5 warm-up) of that.

The friction cycle ergometer appeared in the late 19th C. in the form of the Prony Brake, a series of hardwood brake shoes bearing on the exterior surface of an iron-rimmed wheel mounted to the axle of a water wheel under test for the purpose of measuring and comparing power developed by various designs of water wheels and head races. The exercise ergometer appears much later as a punishment for schoolboys and head cases.

LOL! Really it is an ancient concept, but the "exercise rower" for geeks gone mainstream has more to do with portable computers becoming available, the development of microprocessing and then cheap memory. I agree with you and think that punishment is for the guys that went to school in the 1970's with TI-59 calculators hanging off their pants' belt loops who played battleship on them during class... There was no reason to make a precision fan-brake before consumers could have a computer hooked up to it that could do something with the measurements. A simple speedometer would be fine. Do you remember when Cat-Eye bicycle computers came out? Same thing. Right around 1980...

Cheers

[jackarabit]

Still have Performance Bike Shop shorts with Cateye-stenciled legs. Chamois, sittin on ya, sittin n ya My dear old chamois! Very comfortable for erging and rowing.

[mdpfirrman]

That´s the seat pad I am using: http://www.skwoosh.com/category/rowing.html
I am quite happy with it albeit it does not spare the pain entirely on a half marathon. But isn´t pain what tells us to be alive?
Nice to read that you keep up the technique training Ergo. You will get there.....

Ergo, this is the one I have too. It's pretty decent for the price. Until recently, I was doing fine with it (much better than just the seat), then I started having issues with friction / chaffing near my tailbone. I've recently added a day and I'm considering Pete's Plan (which is six days a week). I just also bought a product called Chamois Butt'r, made for bikers. It's not cheap (around $12) but it comes in a really large tube and I used it today and I can tell you if your issue is chaffing / rubbing, it was the most amazing difference immediately. I'm a relative newer rower too and have had the same issue (really low body fat too on my lower body).

I bought two tubes and this should last me probably longer than six months. Best $24 spent ever since I work at a desk and was fidgeting all day long after rowing to get comfortable on my ass.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HZ ... 7E0R7541BH