Is Height A Factor ?

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 13th, 2005, 9:17 pm

Diesel, How are you going about getting from 245 to 220? I went from 280 to 240 in a reasonable amount of time, but have stayed in the 235-240 range since then (about 2 years now) while continuing at least the same level of training that got rid of the first 40lbs, it seems to have been reshaped quite a bit though. I'm thinking that I might insert a bit of more intense long intervals and see if that will help. Heck, our 2x is moving pretty good right now, but if I can take off 20-30 lbs, that would be like having a boat way under FISA min weight. And if 10lbs is worth 4 sec over 2K, 12 sec faster would be scary fast for "old farts".

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 13th, 2005, 9:43 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (DIESEL @ Jan 13 2005, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I am positive that once I am down to 220 I will be much faster than I am now.  </td></tr></table> I'm glad we agree that weight is a factor. <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Height is most definitely a factor. Someone 6'7 will have a huge mechanical advantage over someone who is 6'0 or even 6'3 for that matter. </td></tr></table> The World Records show otherwise. Long time world record holder Eskild Ebbesen is 6'2 (though metric shows 6'0 or 6'1). Current record holder Elia Luini is 6'1 (metric shows 183 cm or 6'0). Where are all your 6'7 rowers with that great mechanical advantage??????? Apparently they don't exist. Height is not an advantage, unless you are restricting the rating.

[old] SimonB · Post by **[old] SimonB** » January 13th, 2005, 9:54 pm

Hi I'm 5'8. No matter how hard I train, no matter how good my form or technique is, no matter how good my CV is, I do not believe I will ever be able to pull under 7:00 for 2k. My stroke length is just not long enough. I have taller friends who can easily out pull me over the same distance, even though they are not as fit and have poor technique. Thats why I do distance, not time. Then I crush them heheehe

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 14th, 2005, 12:14 am

Simon, You can match their stroke length per time by upping your stroke rate. Example: A stroke length of 60" x 32 spm = the same stroke length per time as a stroke length of 48" x 40 spm. Also, provided the same timing, rhythm and style etc, the ratios will also be the same.

[old] Kudos · Post by **[old] Kudos** » January 14th, 2005, 12:35 am

its not fair to put lightwieghts up there john because they all have to weigh the same. Like Diesal said, you get a diminishing return as you get past a certain point. You want big guys, how about the current open male record holder, Mathias Siejkowski(sp?)he's 6'8-Rob Waddel is 6'7 the previous holder. The male collegiate record holder - jamie schroder- is also 6'7. So it is apparent that on the heavyweight side-the tall guys rule the roost. Even as competitive lightweights go, I would say 6'2 is tall.

[old] Kudos · Post by **[old] Kudos** » January 14th, 2005, 12:39 am

SimonB I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but it is possible for someone under 5'8 to break 7mins, and I think you should be able to as well. That is a very negative statement. Lisa Schlenker weighs 135pds and is under 5'8 and breaks she breaks 7.

[old] whp4 · Post by **[old] whp4** » January 14th, 2005, 1:32 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jan 14 2005, 01:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (DIESEL @ Jan 13 2005, 05:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I am positive that once I am down to 220 I will be much faster than I am now.  </td></tr></table> I'm glad we agree that weight is a factor. </td></tr></table> For different reasons, and in different directions! </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (John Rupp @ Jan 14 2005, 01:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> <table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Height is most definitely a factor. Someone 6'7 will have a huge mechanical advantage over someone who is 6'0 or even 6'3 for that matter. </td></tr></table> The World Records show otherwise. Long time world record holder Eskild Ebbesen is 6'2 (though metric shows 6'0 or 6'1). Current record holder Elia Luini is 6'1 (metric shows 183 cm or 6'0). Where are all your 6'7 rowers with that great mechanical advantage??????? Apparently they don't exist. Height is not an advantage, unless you are restricting the rating. </td></tr></table> Yes, it's true, we don't see many 6'7" lightweights. I bet Eskild weighs pretty much as much as the weight limit allows, ditto Elia - so to get another 5 inches of bone length (let's assume we don't get any more mass of those pesky internal organs that don't pull their weight) in the same weight restriction, that leverage advantage will have to offset the decrease in muscle cross-sectional area that inevitably must occur when you drape the same number of muscle fibers over a larger frame. I'm not sure it does - but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Where are all the 5'9" lightweights who are putting Eskild and Elia's times in jeopardy? Too bad C2 doesn't collect height data, or we could see what the cruel truth is with something resembling a statistically significant sample instead of pointing at one or two outliers. If there isn't a height advantage in rowing, why did I (5'9" myself) have such a hard time seeing anything last year at the Peninsula IRC? About the only people I saw there appreciably shorter were obviously the younger siblings or children of the competitors! Bill

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 14th, 2005, 2:12 am

Bill, Those one or two others are world record holders. When they set their records, Ebbesen and Luini were reported to weight 158 and 152 pounds respectively. Kudos, The ones you mentioned are all much HEAVIER than Ebbesen and Luini. Also note they did not generate as much wattage per weight. If their height was an advantage, they would have generated more wattage per weight. Weight makes a difference. Height doesn't, unless the rating is restricted.

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » January 14th, 2005, 2:39 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Where are all your 6'7 rowers with that great mechanical advantage??????? Apparently they don't exist. </td></tr></table> Actually, John they do. If I'm not mistaken, the current WR holder in the heavyweight 2K, a big ass German called Mathias Siejkowski who stroked a scorching 5:37 flat a few years ago, is 6'10". You'll note that most of the badass erg monsters like Waddell (6'7"), Jamie Schroeder (6'7"), Dave Simon (6'6"), Karpinnen (6'6), Redgrave (6'5), and Pinsent (6'5) are all on the tall side. Most elite oarsmen, who are also really fast on the erg also tend to be in the 210-225 weight range. Anyway, John, you were saying they don't exist?

[old] DIESEL · Post by **[old] DIESEL** » January 14th, 2005, 2:55 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Diesel, How are you going about getting from 245 to 220? I went from 280 to 240 in a reasonable amount of time, but have stayed in the 235-240 range since then (about 2 years now) while continuing at least the same level of training that got rid of the first 40lbs, it seems to have been reshaped quite a bit though. </td></tr></table> Hi Paul, it could be a lot of factors: -diet? (usually the main culprit) - if you're doing a lot of cardio and not dropping weight - you are simply eating too many calories... it sounds like you may have an endomorphic mesotype, i.e. your body retains calories - which is great if you wanted to be a powerlifter or a football player, but something you have to keep an eye on if you want to be a rower. A suggestion is to cut your carbs somewhat and up your protein intake a bit, and keep fats to a minimum. A good idea is to bracket your carb intake around your workouts. -do you lift weights? (this definitely helps) a steady diet of olympic lifts, squats, bentovers, basically all the big compound exercises - done in sets of 3x5 (around 75% of 1RM) however, you only take 1 min rest b/w sets. A real scorcher. Pick 5-6 exercises and do from 15-21 total sets - the only caveat is that you have to work your whole body. You can do this workout 3 times a week. Day 1 use a 3x5 protocol, Day 2 use a 3x8 protocol (of course you'll have to drop the weight ) and Day 3 use a 3x12 protocol (drop weight again) take 24-48 hours between weight sessions. - how are you structuring your rowing workouts (primarily long distance, or short distance) Those interval workouts are the key to fat loss. Long distance cardio is only good for base training - you're advanced enough that your body has ADAPTED to it and has gotten so good at completing that workout that it's not burning fat as much as it used to. Or the more likely culprit, you're eating more calories than you burn with those workouts. On my end, I'm just rowing right now, I basically follow the Wolverine Plan for Level 4 and Level 3, and then do the Australian Program instead of the Level 1 and Level 2 workouts - they are virtually the same thing... The weight loss will take care of itself, I'm taking it real slow, because I want to keep as much of my strength as possible. I subscribe to the Arnold Schwarzenegger school of dieting. He didn't! He just never let himself get so out of shape that he had to go on a special diet in order to prepare for one his bodybuilding shows. He just let the training he did take of it for him. I think that's the healthiest way to go.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » January 14th, 2005, 3:25 am

Diesel, With all that height, their watts per kilo is less than that of Ebbesen and Luini. So their height is not helping them all that much. If they were 152 pounds do you think they could row 6:02.6..... No way.

[old] Kudos · Post by **[old] Kudos** » January 14th, 2005, 7:50 am

their watts per kilo may be higher, but they still don't have a 5:37. Both Mathias and Luini are performing at the tops of their sport it is useless to try and compare the two wih coulda woulda shouldas. What both athletes are is in the very tall range of both of their respective weight classes, so it is apparent that height makes a substantial difference. This is what I and Diesal have been trying to tell you. You may choose as you wish from here, but those are the facts. When someone under 6'4 in the heavyweight or 5'11 for a lightweight is the top athlete, then we will consider your plea

[old] Janice · Post by **[old] Janice** » January 14th, 2005, 9:03 am

You can say height doesn't matter all you want, but it does to a certain extent. If height didn't matter, they would let girls who are 5'7 onto more university hwt teams, but they don't, and many of them require you to be at least 5'8 last I heard from some friends. That said, I would argue that height seems to matter a lot more on the men's side than the woman's. Georgina Evers-Swindell (who holds the WR with 6:28.6)is "only" 5'11/175lb which is surprising in a sport where women who are over 6' are a common sight. For women times seem to come down to conditioning, fitness, and time spent on the machine moreso than actual size, see Lisa Schlenker.

[old] SimonB · Post by **[old] SimonB** » January 14th, 2005, 11:10 am

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Kudos @ Jan 13 2005, 11:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> SimonB I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but it is possible for someone under 5'8 to break 7mins, and I think you should be able to as well. That is a very negative statement. Lisa Schlenker weighs 135pds and is under 5'8 and breaks she breaks 7.  </td></tr></table> Hi Kudos It's not meant to be negative, just realistic . I have set my goals to achivable level and when I break them I celebrate and reset them to the next level. That way I am never dissappointed and it keeps me motivated. (obviously there will be a point where speed will not increase any more and my goals will have to change). Now you've really made my day (Lisa Schlenker!) Thanks for the support though...

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 14th, 2005, 11:36 am

Diesel, Thanks! Good points, after reading them over it occured to me that I had become far less structured over the past year, due to increasing time on the water, which I keep an overall record of, but the consistency of what gets done during those outings was far less than what happens on the Erg. I tracked calorie intake for several weeks to see if I was gettign out of hand, and it didn't seem to be the case, I'd certainly not get a calorie count for a workout anywhere near consumption, but that's only short time of the day, and the steady weight would suggest that there is some form of balance. The idea that adaptation has changed the effectiveness of the fat burning process is interesting, I'm going to try to put in some very different interval training and see if that will break things loose. Yes, I have done weight training in the past and will be introducing some of that to see what happens. Finally, staying fit is indeed far better than having to regain fitness, and since you brought up Arnold, he's still looking pretty good for an old fart.

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