Has This Ever Happened To Anyone...?

[[old] michael]

You're doing your level best to maintain proper form and someone sits down on the rower next to yours and proceeds to use such an obnoxious form that you'd swear he was doing this just to get at you. I had one guy who did the recovery in a big sine wave pattern. Felt like strangling him.

[[old] Pete Marston]

Yes, about 75% of the time I row in the gym (I use two different gyms, and it's the same in both). It is very hard not to be put off, but you just have to try not to be.

[[old] PaulS]

Well, if I knew I was sitting down next to you, I could have been more careful. <br /><br />Just make sure that you aren't the one considered "goofy".<br /><br />There was a great thread on this in the Old forum, maybe it can be revived with some stories of the most humorous Gym Experiences being reposted.<br /><br />I never row in a gym, but even at a Rowing club you can witness some behaviors that are pretty funny. Exactly how is it possible (for a grown adult) to have a split slower than 3:00 when rating 27?!?! I've seen it before my very eyes and still have trouble believing it's for real. The one thing you know, is that you do not want that person "riding" in the boat you are trying to move, they probably don't help much when carrying it to the water either. <br /><br />Seriously now, there are probably a lot of people that have "seen" rowing and just get on the machine and think they are duplicating the motions they saw. Think about what you look like when you moonwalk "Just like Michael Jackson".

[[old] dadams]

What gets me is when you end up having to do the job of the gym trainers. <br /><br />You'll have someone next to you erging like that, and a trainer will walk right on by and say nothing. Injury waiting to happen.<br /><br />Dwayne

[[old] neilb]

Actually it happened to me today. I was into the second 30 min session trying hard to keep spm to 24-26, split at 1:52, technique sound (rowing long and smooth) and monitor HR, and this a lot to remember at my age, when I heard the clanking of chains from just behind me. Not only does the noise irritate immensely (because you know it is such bad technique) what was worse was the fact that I could not actually see the culprit!<br /><br />The only good point is that people who row like that tend not to row for very long.<br /><br />I have also had recently when setting up for a 60 min strapless recovery row the well meaning advice that I should put my feet into the straps as otherwise you fly off the back!<br /><br />Also saw last week the gym guy with the legend "Personal Trainer" on the back of his shirt pushing a client to complete a 2k as part of general fitness regime with a style that can only be described as having no style. (it looked as if the arms and legs were never straight at any point, the handle was bouncing off the adams apple and yes the chain was clanking) <br /><br />And what about the two, or even three, people who row side by side as slowly as possible so that they hold a loud conversation for 10 minutes ( perhaps they have read the training manual where it says that UT2 rowing is good for fat burning and that you should be able to hold a conversation when doing it)<br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Feb 9 2005, 10:58 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Feb 9 2005, 10:58 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What gets me is when you end up having to do the job of the gym trainers. <br /><br />Dwayne <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />But have you ever met a gym trainer that would do a good job? Some of those folks probably did get "instruction", just not very good "instruction".<br /><br />You're a rather personable guy, perhaps you could give the trainers a training session to help them along with being able to help others so you don't have to.

[[old] dadams]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Feb 9 2005, 03:00 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 9 2005, 03:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're a rather personable guy, perhaps you could give the trainers a training session to help them along with being able to help others so you don't have to.  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Have done so more than once!!

[[old] slo_boat]

Here are a few questions to ponder. <br /><br />Does it make you feel superior to know that you are "better" than the people that do not know what they are doing? <br /><br />How does making fun of these people advance the sport of rowing?<br /><br />Did you do anything to help improve the situation? (You can share your knowledge and experience with the gym staff or you could offer pointers to people on the ergs. You might even make a few bucks hosting an erging clinic. You might even start something that becomes an indoor rowing club.)<br /><br />I ask these questions because I am one of those people with lousy technique. I rowed in college almost 20 years ago. I have no coach, and I don't have the money to join the local rowing clubs. If I did have the money, I wouldn't have the time to make it worthwhile. I'm not going to give up that much time from my family.<br /><br />My alternative is to come to this training forum to look for advice. Instead of advice, however, I learn that I must be an idiot that does not know any better. Do I learn anything on here that actually helps me improve my technique? That's hard to say. You folks spend so much time arguing about fast or slow stroke rates or high or low drag factors or whether slides are cheating, that while most of the time I spend here is interesting, it is not very useful.<br /><br />Rowing is not popular or well known outside of the limited community of rowers. It's sad though that some people confuse their participation in a realtively obsure activity with being part of an elite group. Most of the time when someone on this forum makes snide comments about technique, he or she concludes with, "At least they won't last long!" or something similar. Don't you see the irony in that? Here's a person trying something new. Do you encourage that person or help them, or are you so impressed with your own superiority that you want them to fail? Do you try to be an ambassador for the rowing community?<br /><br />Here's an example. I was at a gym in Kansas. There was a kid rowing with horrible technique. When he finished, I told him that I could give him some pointers that could help him improve. Even though my own technique is poor, and I'm not a coach, his improvement was remarkable. The sad thing though is that he said I was the first person who ever helped him. He said that there were some guys that could really row ("won awards and everything"), but the only thing they ever told him was to get off of the machines so they could work out! This kid has seen people rowing, and he thought it was cool. (He got on the treadmill next to the erg when I was working out, and all he talked about was the rowing he saw in the olympics and the boats he's seen on the local waterway.) He wants to learn more about rowing. He's doing the best he can. Does he get any help from the local rowing community? No, he gets it from some guy from out of town that isn't much better than he is.

[[old] PaulS]

SB, <br /><br />Nice rant. Particualry the invocation of "You folks", can't get much more elitist than that. <br /><br />Rowers who know what they are doing and are good at it, are rarely arrogant, they know how much work it takes to improve, but they will also have a sense of humor and know when laughter is a better approach.<br /><br />I know you are probably very receptive to unsolicited advice, but that's not always the case. Knowing when to quit, helps to maintain ones sanity.<br /><br />In your best Scottish accent, read the following as it was said by a golf pro to a man that just wasn't getting it.<br /><br />"Take two weeks off from the game. Then give it up completely."<br /><br />Was there anyone here "making fun" of someone else?<br /><br />Cheers.

[[old] slo_boat]

PaulS,<br /><br />Thank you. I suppose it was a bit of a rant. I don't think using the term "you folks" is particularly elitist. It does suggest that I don't feel like I belong to the club, whatever it is.<br /><br />You'll have to answer the question about whether the people posting were making fun of other people yourself. I suppose the context matters. It could be that a description of a recovery that looks like a sine wave or clanking chains or people rowing slowly or arms and legs that are never straight is simply setting out facts and using them as a starting point for instruction. On the other hand, it could be making fun of someone. You are free to argue that I am too sensitive. Then again, ask yourself how you would feel if you recognized yourself in those posts.<br /><br />Sometimes I take unsolicited advice. Sometimes I don't. Whether I do depends mostly on the way the advice is offered and whether it appears credible. <br /><br /><br />I thought that your reply near the start of the thread put everything in to perspective.<br /><br />"Well, if I knew I was sitting down next to you, I could have been more careful. <br /><br />Just make sure that you aren't the one considered "goofy"."<br /><br /><br />I can give you several reasons that a grown adult might have splits slower than 3 minutes. In my case it was that I had recently had knee surgery, and in addition to trying to limit the demands I put on my knee, I was also coping with getting back in shape after feeling sorry for myself because of a variety of injuries that kept me from trail running for the last 2 years. I also have poor technique. <br /><br />The good news is that I am getting back into shape, my injuries are gone, and I'm starting to run again. I don't have splits over 3:00 any more. I've managed a 1:46 500 and a HM of under an hour and a half. (It will still be a long time before I can pull like I did on the 8.)<br /><br />Thanks for the golf story. If I went to a golf pro, that is probably the advice I would receive! <br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

Yep, you're right, we all have these unique contextual issues that flavor our interpretation of a lot of things. That's what is so good about forums like this, we got a problem, just put it out there and hopefully something useful will be suggested to fix it, or at least deal with it. <br /><br />I'm still having a tough time with the 3:00 thing. I train and Adaptive Rower, Arms only (Paralized from mid-chest down), and I give him a bad time (encouragingly of course) about a 3:00, he takes it to heart and stays faster than that, he broke 2:30 for a 500M piece the other day, big milestone!<br /><br />I know it just has to do with something that is not quite understood about the stroke, or that "work" is actually involved in Rowing. The theme of "It looks so easy, those boats moving along, like they are not working at all" seems to be common amongst the "Open House" and "Learn to Row Day" participants, we do our best to keep it fun, and gently move them along to reality. The most fun I has was when a tiny girl (2 years old tops) was watching her dad as I was instructing a group, and she piped up, "I do what daddy do." and she actually did quite well. Now it was about a 5:00 pace, but the stroke length was about 12 inches.

[[old] neilb]

slo boat,<br /><br />You are right. Whilst I did not make fun of anyone it is wrong to highlight the shortcomings of others for mild amusement value even when it is done in the confines of this forum. <br /><br />I am sorry that you find the forum less than helpful but I cannot really see how as a whole it suggests that you must be an idiot. There is a lot of debate on quite specific points e.g. stroke rate but also a lot of very good general advice on approach and technique.<br /><br />I had not rowed much at all prior to November so am pretty new to this but I find even the discussions you refer to be informative and interesting. Once I take the trouble to understand the points and determine if they are relevant to what I am trying to do I can adjust my technique/training accordingly. <br /><br />Some of the difficulty is that there are a lot of very experienced rowers on here and so there can be quite opposite views on different things. Again using stroke rate as an example the majority seem to favour low rates as part of a training regime with higher rates for racing but there are some notable objectors to this.<br /><br />An important part of learning is being able to reach a view/conclusion for oneself. So, I view the debates, try and understand the key points and then decide whether it is relevant to me (and perhaps go away and try it out). This is how I am working on improving my fitness and my technique.<br /><br />On the whole a lot of advice is offered and it is good to see the feedback from so many "newbies" who have clearly benefited from the advice, which is principally around technique.<br /><br />I did not have a coach, nor am I a member of a rowing club. I learnt to row because I decided it was asport I wanted to particpate in and so I bothered to understand how to do it properly. This was by looking at the website, downloading the training manual from the UK site and watching the training video. I spent time in the gym on a rower in front of a mirror working on the technique so as to arrive at a reasonable basic technique. I now continue to work on that based mainly on the discussions within this forum.<br /><br />I happen to think that anyone who is interested in rowing as a sport will be willing to learn but a lot of the people who use rowers in the gym are not interested in rowing as a sport (in the same way that most people on a treadmill are not interetsed in running as a sport). They see it as a 10 minute part of their gym routine (hence my comment "they tend not to row for very long").<br /><br />There is a skill to rowing well and you need to address this if rowing is to be your sport. If on the other hand someone simply wants 10 minutes of fat burning/weight bearing workout and a bit of variety then fine; let them plod away. I would not make fun of them for that but I do find the styles employed amusing.<br /><br />Rowing was an elite sport as it was available only to a fortunate few and argubaly still is; for example having access to suitable water is very helpful. However, indoor rowing is available to anyone who has access to a gym and so cannot be said to be elite. <br /><br />I do not consider myself, nor most of the other indoor rowers, as part of an elite group; this is reserved for the few within it who are judged thus by virtue of their performances not simply by participation or attitude. Interestingly some of the top performers are also the most forthcoming and helpful with advice for all standards. <br /><br />However the number of people who pursue it as an actual sport is fairly small and will probably remain so. This may be because there is a lot of technique to learn before you can actually do it in way that is remotely enjoyable (unlike say running or cycling where you can do the basics staright from the start).<br /><br />Would more people stick with it or adopt it as a sport if they were helped more with it? Those who want to improve will find a way to do so and perhaps people like me could do more. I will not approach people in the gym as that is not something I am comfortable with but will offer advice when asked. I contribute advice via this forum and also via email where I think the one to one approach would be better.<br /><br /> I am "superior"? No. Do I try to be an "Ambassador"? Yes. Could I do more? Yes. <br /><br />Attempts at introducing a little humour based upon real life experience and observations is not "making fun of someone" and neither restricts nor advances the sport of indoor rowing. <br /><br />I take pride from the fact that I have taken the time and trouble myself to learn how to row reasonably well and part of the credit for this is down to the advice offerd by many on this forum. <br /><br />If you know you have lousy technique then you cannot be "an idiot that does not know any better". You do not need a coach nor a rowing club to attain a reasonable standard, just a willingness to learn and to decide what is best for you. <br /><br />Does a discussion on stroke rate or slides, or a little observational humour really hold anyone back who actually wants to learn? <br /><br /><br /><br />

[[old] Paul S]

I guess I would have to agree with slo boat in that there is a sense of elitism that runs thru this forum somewhat. There is always plenty of help too. There are always people like PaulS, John Rupp, and quite a few others ready with an answer to any question a less experienced erger has, and of course someone like Sir Pirate to keep things on a lighter footing. I have really enjoyed some of the threads he has started. All in all I really enjoy my daily stroll thru forum.

[[old] michael]

As I was the one who started this thread, I'll chime in by admitting that I could have chosen my words a bit better. Looking at it again, I can see how it could be viewed as elitist in tone. That was not my intention and I'll be the first to admit that I'm strictly an amateur rower (C2 rower for 5 years, with no water rowing experience whatsoever). I have, however, made a concerted effort to emulate the C2 proper rowing technique, even if can surely be critiqued. <br /><br />The incident I wrote about happens time and again and I guess I just have to reconcile myself with the fact that most people who jump in on a rower at the gym have still less experience than I do and really aren't serious about making erging a fundamental part of the fitness regimen. Part of me wanted to gently suggest a more proper technique, but how do you do this without coming across as a wise guy? I'll try to be more patient with others--but that "loop the loop" recovery--that's got to go...

[[old] akit110]

It's nice to see everyone discussing this in a conciliatory manner. <br /><br />I must note that almost every sport or hobby I've participated in which there is an online forum, I eventually see the enthusiasts comment on some of the shortcomings of the dilettantes and dabblers. In martial arts, the hardcore grapplers and Thai boxers laugh at the Tae Kwon Do practitioners at the local strip mall. Among the muscleheads, there is equal derision for those 'pencil necks' who dare to use their almighty squat rack for their bicep curls. And in photography, there is the special scorn for the rich dentist with the $3000 Leica but who only pulls ito out to take horrible snapshot photos of his kid's birthday party. Anyway, you get the idea.<br /><br />Is this sort of thing human behavior at its best? No, of course not. But I don't think it's meant to be cruel on an individual basis to anyone. I think it's just the special type of myopia that all enthusiasts develop about anyone setting foot in their world who doesn't take their passion as seriously as they do.<br /><br />