30r20 - fixed pace or fixed HR?

[bonefixer]

I'm looking, at age 45, to beat my 13 year old 2K PB - and I think I'm nearly there. The PB from all those years ago is 6:51.x (can't remember the tenth), and yesterday I did 6:58.3, which probably wasn't quite a max effort as I just wanted a sub-7 and was determined not to 'handle-down' so paced very carefully.

Recently I've done a lot of distance work, including an 85mile charity stunt that took all day, so endurance is currently quite high!

Anyway, for the final push towards my 2K PB, I've decided to do some intervals, and some 30min R20 pieces. I did one tonight, maintaining exactly 2:00.0 pace for the half-hour at exactly 20spm (apart from the 5th 3 minute interval where my concentration lapsed and I pulled 1:59.3 ) My heart rate for this drifted up from about 150 at the start to 165 at the end, which is getting on for anaerobic. Should I instead keep my HR the same (150?) throughout by gradually letting my pace decline, or is it best to do as I did and maintain a flat pace while my HR goes anaerobic?

[G-dub]

I love taking a crack at these answers and then getting overruled by the powers that be it would seem to me that this is a power and endurance training workout, so you are supposed to be working very hard and only once a week kind of thing. I think that this one is about getting the most pressure you can manage for 30 minutes at 20 rate.

[Edward4492]

IMO, for a 20r/30m the goal is to develop power. My best is 210w at 20r for 30m. These things require that you really focus on each stroke being strong and solid. That's why they work. I'll get some push back here to be sure, but the only time I use HR is as an upper limiter for long (10k and up) endurance rows.At the capped HR (usually 75%) I have no issues with recovery. From time to time I measure HR, but I look at it as another metric to review; not a target. One of the hardest sessions I ever did was 15k at 20r/ 1:59 pace, just under an hour. Everyone responds differently and different approaches are used at different times.
Intervals for speed ( 8x 500m) and hard and fast free rate 5000's need to be done. A fast 5k may be the best piece to build fitness for 2k racing. But I always do at least one 20r work out per week. Check out the Q-Power website, they have an excellent article on this subject.

So the answer to your question; hold the power and rate, look at HR when you're done and if you went deep, it may affect your recovery. (I'm not in anyway the final word or expert here, just my opinion)

[Carl Watts]

I don't know your height but my best ever 2K was at age 45, it was the 6:46.4 from memory.

These days all my training is sub 20spm for 30 to 40 minutes and am working back to 2:00 pace at 20spm without the HR maxing out, preferably just hitting AT at the finish so that's 178.

You probably want to find your training bands by using a heartrate monitor, really these are great not only for training but racing to prevent you from blowing up. Find your maximum from a really hard row or probably the 2K you have already done would be close.

What I try to achieve is a fixed average pace for the row and then use the average HR information off the monitor to track my progress. With enough training your average HR and in particular the maximum drops pretty quickly and the whole hR increase over the 30 minute row is more of a gradual climb, the flatter the better. You will also notice your resting HR falls with this kind of training five or 6 times a week.

I don't see any point in rowing with a fixed HR, just alter your pace and also you should be able to adjust your rating up if you want to drop your heartrate slightly. There is a huge difference in rating between 17 and 20 spm at about a 2:00 pace, lower is much much harder. With a bit of history and a few rows you know pretty much within a bpm what your average HR will be for a given pace, rating and distance/time.

[lindsayh]

IMO these pieces are already stroke rate limited to build power so there is no benefit in limiting HR as well.
As mentioned above there is a good Q Power article on this which looks at the physiological benefits of the 30/r20
http://www.q-power.co/30r20__1_of_3_.html

[Griparn]

Another question on the subject 30r20. What DF should be used compare to other workouts?

[Butch91]

OK for me there are two types of 30r20 - one is basically a near death experience and the other is to help prolong life lol

OK near death experience first - we (Q-power) and a lot of other rowing squads use this as a weekly power endurance piece. If done weekly you know from the previous week your split and using that and judgement as to how you are physically and mentally you target a split that after a couple of minutes has you wondering why you are doing this and by about 6 minutes has you contemplating quitting - you don't (usually) and carry on which has the added benefit of building mental toughness - reasonably flat paced

70% HRR 30r20 - work out your 70% HRR and then start to hit that within about 3 minutes and slowly bleed of the pace to keep it there - this is a stock row to help build heart and lungs without frying yourself

[lindsayh]

Another question on the subject 30r20. What DF should be used compare to other workouts?

I like a lower DF for low SR pieces - keeps the fan rolling until you get back to each stroke. Not too low though as you want the power workout.

[Edward4492]

Great stuff Paul and Lindsay...particularly good to hear from Paul, the master of these grueling pieces! A guy I met at Center City Slam last year (where he pulled a 6:06 as I re-call), Richard Pruyn, had posted up a brutal 25k he did at an 18r and a 1:52 pace. Frightening stuff. Thanks for mentioning the HR capped stuff Paul (which you seem to do a lot of). Makes sense as a day-to-day repeatable piece. But as you mentioned, it's the hard un-capped (HR) sessions that build the power.

[Butch91]

No problems - I don't pop on here very often. Also for drag I don't vary it for a 30r20 - it's all about the explosion

[bonefixer]

Thanks for all the replies - especially Paul who helped me in the past via a PM on a different forum prior to my 85 mile challenge!

Another question Paul if I may - your killer 30R20 session - what pace is that in comparison with your 2K, or specifically, given my 2K of 7.00ish, what should my killer 30R20 pace be? I'll have a go at the same with 70%HRR and report back.

[Butch91]

My PB on the 30r20 is 1:41.6 (8,855m) and 2k is 1:31.2 (6:04.6) but I'm probably light on the 2k side in true comparison - for me the only way to nail the 30r20's are to do them week in and week out and you'll soon no where the line between life and near death is lol remember it's not about the score it's about the training affect!!

[Edward4492]

Feel a little sheepish jumping in behind Paul, but since me and bonefixer are at a similar place in our training (6:59 2k PR last year; right now around a 7:06) and I do a lot of these rows my numbers may be of value. I haven't tracked HR, but my 7500m pieces (a little shy of 30min) I can do 20r/2:00/ 200w fairly hard, but not suicide-inducing. Just requires focus. This is a row that does not dig into my ability to recover and I can do every day if need be, but you're working. I recently did 5000m at 20r/220w/1:56 which WAS brutal (and was well under 20min). My hardest 7500m was 20r/210w/1:58 pace. Again very hard but not as tough as the 220w 5k. So for me, I can handle the 20r/2:00 several times a week with no sense of dread or lasting damage.As a side note I pull a light, 95 drag (59 yr old LWT). Like Paul said, it's about the "pop" out of the catch.

[f2d]

The whole point of doing an r20 is to build up lactic acid.

So you should be hitting anaerobic heart rates during the piece. If you aren't then you did a pointless workout.

[lindsayh]

your killer 30R20 session - what pace is that in comparison with your 2K, or specifically, given my 2K of 7.00ish, what should my killer 30R20 pace be? I'll have a go at the same with 70%HRR and report back.

FWIW I did a session this week not killer but pretty close to max
30' sr20 @1:57.7 (214W)
7642m MHR164 (94%)

My 2k is 1:41.5 right now I suspect (hope!)