Weight Adjustment

[old] Chris Tippin · Post by **[old] Chris Tippin** » May 31st, 2004, 10:09 pm

I have just found the weight adjustment formula on the C2 website; provided below just in case you want to see it, and here are my thoughts and of course I am interested what other rower/ergers think. I guess only rower/ergers really apply to the discussion but all replys are interesting! Ever since I started rowing I always saw my times or had people talk about my weight adjusted time. I am a lightweight, a real lightweight often under 150lbs, so of course weight adjusted times favor me dramatically but I HATE them!! Nothing gets under my skin more than when I see my erg times posted with a weight adjusted factor. It's not what I pulled; right?! Of course I realize the importance of strength to weight ratio as it applies to actual rowing on the water, but I am sorry erging is not rowing! Dont worry I am not going say 'Ergs dont float!'; plenty of things dont float used in rowing for training. Also yes erg times are used and should be used by coaches, including myself, to have a tangible piece of data to help decide boatings. Only to help though no more importance than that. So what do you guys think of weight adjusted scores? <a href='http://www.concept2.com/rowing/training/weight_adj.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.com/rowing/training ... > Chris Tippin

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » May 31st, 2004, 10:56 pm

Don't like them as they are artificial, arbritary, and as such one has to question the accuracy of whatever formula is used. Even though they help me as a "light" heavyweight, I have no interest in using to them to adjust my time to beat a heavier erger. I would never feel I had won something if it were done through the use of some weight adjustment formula. If they're valid, why don't we have height adjustment charts as height has some physical impact on your time capabilities too. Plus we don't award shorter basketball players an extra point for making a shot to adjust for their shorter height. Bring them all on, short, tall, heavy, light, older, younger, men, women, I'm willing to race them all straight up. Maybe I'm not much of a challenge for some, but I'll still race with them without any adjustments.

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » June 1st, 2004, 1:00 pm

The calculations seem fairly reasonable. My hyperkinetic 60 pound son would have to row a 9 min 2K to match a 6:24 2K for me. I think it would be very hard for him to hold a 2:15 pace for nine minutes to match my 6:24. But a lot of this has to do with age. Anything that takes more than 2 minutes of effort is too much for his attention span. Cheers, Paul Flack

[old] dadams · Post by **[old] dadams** » June 1st, 2004, 3:14 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (Chris Tippin @ May 31 2004, 09:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I have just found the weight adjustment formula on the C2 website; provided below just in case you want to see it, and here are my thoughts and of course I am interested what other rower/ergers think. I guess only rower/ergers really apply to the discussion but all replys are interesting!  </td></tr></table> Chris, What a crock!!! According to that calculator, my best time (5:47.8) would translate to a 5:30.6 at my current weight (215lbs). I only wish I could pull a 5:30. The person that actually does this, will be nothing less that a complete beast!!! I understand the theory behind the adjustment, but I'm not sure if it's a sound one. I'm not sure the physics will back it up. Are you telling me that by lowering a boat in the water, say by some fixed amount (by increasing the weight in the boat), that it would increase the drag on said boat by that much?!?!? I'd have to go through my Dynamics books again, but I say 'Bah!' There are to many other things that can come into consideration when you're talking about rowing on water. Temperature of the water, wind, current, just to name a few. Are you going to factor those into this equation as well? And if so, how? I say you row a time on the erg, then that's the time you rowed on the erg. QED. Dwayne

[old] Rogus · Post by **[old] Rogus** » June 1st, 2004, 3:53 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (dadams @ Jun 1 2004, 11:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> ... at my current weight (215lbs).  </td></tr></table> With his times, I had this mental image of Dwayne as being about 10 feet tall and 375 lbs. Surprised to find out he's just a skinny guy!

[old] Chris Tippin · Post by **[old] Chris Tippin** » June 1st, 2004, 5:39 pm

My point exactly dadams! Never cared for weight adjusted never will. As I believe Rogus said lets just race any height, weight, age, or sex and may the best person win by raw time not weight adjusted. I do think Concept2 may have a too generous weight adjustment calculation, because my 5k PR (17:36 at 148lbs) would be a weight adjusted time of 15:24. I know in college when the coach weight adjusted my times they were never that much of a difference. Typically just a few seconds at the most and I hated that! I think an IQ adjustment maybe more appropriate; that would help me out ALLOT! Tippin

[old] Chris Tippin · Post by **[old] Chris Tippin** » June 1st, 2004, 5:52 pm

Well I dont agree with you completely dadams; I just re-read your response. It appears, and I may be wrong, that you are saying a rower weighing 150lbs pulling a 6:31 2k would not move a boat faster than a rower weighing 198lbs pulling a 6:26 2k (kept the times close for sake of arguement). If this is an incorrect assumption sorry. Of course everything else being equal like technique. I have experienced first hand how rowers of lighter weights will cause a boat to go faster than their heavier counter parts even though the heavier rower has a better erg score. I am not a physics major or anything nor do I claim to have a professional understanding of hydrodynamics but I do know the faster an object travels on water the higher out of the water it is. With this is mind it would appear the higher out of the water the boat can be (with a lighter rower) the boat has higher potential for speed. Not only that it is less weight the other rowers in the boat have to pull. Just to be sure though I still hate weight adjusted times on the erg!

[old] eurofoot13 · Post by **[old] eurofoot13** » June 1st, 2004, 5:56 pm

dadams - what's up with the times? seems right to me - you know, put on a few pounds, beat the world record by only, you know, 7 or so seconds, nothing too too dramatic. Proves the point. Besides - we lightweights can hold our own, certainly on the water.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » June 1st, 2004, 6:24 pm

There is a little problem with the formula, the 270 is supposed to be 170. I was almost a lightwieght there for a moment. - Paul Smith

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » June 1st, 2004, 6:58 pm

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE (PaulS @ Jun 1 2004, 10:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>There is a little problem with the formula, the 270 is supposed to be 170. I was almost a lightwieght there for a moment. - Paul Smith </td></tr></table> Ooops, My bad! "Coaches, take note: The formula used here is not exactly the same as the one you may have used in the past, and you will not be able to compare old adjusted results with adjusted results from this web tool. We have recently fine-tuned the formula so that it better reflects the speed of an eight. " Old formula: Adjustment Factor = (Rower Weight in pounds / 170)^2/9 Of course this sure looks a lot like the new one except for the "270" in the 'new and improved' version. This isn't for adjusting Erg scores to Other Erg Scores, but for adjusting Erg Scores to potential water times in an 8+ rowed with apparently very good technique. Gotta remember to read the fine print! That said, it seems like it might work out, I've been in an 8+ that rowed 2K in 5:43 and it was made up of guys that averaged about 190lbs and averaged 6:15 or so on the Erg. (5:46.9 predicted according to this) Maybe we had favorable conditions that day. Apparently "Fat Boys" can still be floated, even if their Ergs Don't. - Paul Smith

[old] tomhz · Post by **[old] tomhz** » June 2nd, 2004, 7:07 am

Indeed, there should be two weight-adjustment formulas: - a formula to adjust Erg scores to potential water times. This formula takes into account that a heavy rower "sinks" the boat a little more and need to apply more power to overcome the resulting higher drag. This adjustment is useful for on-water coaches. - a formula just to compare Erg scores for people of different weight. This adjustment is somewhat artificial and has lead to firm discissions in this forum. In general, and approximately, this formula will adjust the LW erging world record and the HW erging world record to the same score. In a way this, is the adjustment used in the Nonathlon rankings. The weight-correction of the first formula is smaller than the correction of the latter. I suppose the above-mentioned formula form the C2-site is the first formula? Tom

[old] grams · Post by **[old] grams** » June 3rd, 2004, 4:21 pm

I was happy to read here that us lightweight folks are good to have in a shell, as I am signed up for a beginners rowing class in August where Paul coaches. I look forward to keeping everyone posted on the tragedies and triumphs of a beginner on the water. So Paul, if everyone in the boat is tha same as me (132 pounds, 60-69 years female) how would we do compared to the local talent here in the northwest? I have no concept of what a respectable time is. Question: is there another adjustment factor for height? It's one thing to be light and tall, and another to be light and short I think.

[old] grams · Post by **[old] grams** » June 3rd, 2004, 4:23 pm

Oops, I forgot to add my 200meter time to the previous post. It's a tragically slow 8:47.2

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 3rd, 2004, 5:47 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td class='genmed'>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>In general, and approximately, this formula will adjust the LW erging world record and the HW erging world record to the same score.  </td></tr></table> True, which is a roundabout way of trying to equalize the HW scores to the lightweight WR's. I agree there is no reason for weight adjustments, except to see that, yes, lightweights in general row faster watts per kilogram of body weight than do heavyweights. Otherwise, having weight classes is the best way to go about it, as comparing watt/kg would make it difficult for heavier rowers to match up, being more difficult to generate fitness for the greater mass. A look at LW vs HW 500 meter times vs distance events shows this well. A look at other sports shows this too. Pound for pound, light weightlifters are stronger, but you wouldn't put them in the same weight class as those weighing 300 pounds. So there are 2 measurements, (1) weight, and (2) watts output per weight.

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » June 4th, 2004, 6:25 am

Talking of weight adjustments not used for on water boats I think there is one that is the best. It's the allometrically scaled "ml oxygen/(min and kg^(2/3))"-value. This has physiological reasonings behind it to give a measure of how aerobiccaly fit you are for your weight. Let's look at two examples. Hwt WR done by Siejkowski, 5:37 @ 105kg. First we use the formula for approximate ml oxygen/minute or VO2 max = (2k wattage)*14.4+65 the 2k wattage we get by the formula 2k wattage = 3.5*10^8 / (2k average split)^3 = ___585w___ Now the ml/min value or VO2 max: 585*14.4+65 = ___8493 ml/min___ This gives the weight adjusted value 8493/100^(2/3) = ___382___ Now for the lwt WR by Elia luini, 6:02.6@69kg -->470 watt-->6831ml/min-->406 It seems that Elia Luini has a somewhat better aerobic fitness at his weight than Siejkowski..hm...last time I did this calculation I got to the same values almost but then I didn't know that Elia Luini weighed so little at the race (http://www.concept2.co.uk/resources/pri ... php?id=292) Anyway...guess you can explain that ad hoc by the fact that Elia only trains for aerobic fitness compared to Siejkowski also does a lot of anaerobic work in a race. If you are a light hwt for example the calculations above may give you a hint of how fast you will (not) be able to go. Start from the fitnessvalue 390 and see what time that will give you with your weight. My current fitness value is 274, I won't get to 390...but with more training Im hoping to get above 310.

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