Emotion, Cognition, Faith & Erg Scores

[Daren]

(By "know", I mean know, not "suspect".)

Isn't all of this just suspicion. I have my own opinions but I don't "know" whether Dwayne Adams cheated or not.

Regarding Dwayne, yes. However, I said it about Chad's time, which I knew was a relay. Other people knew, too, but said nothing.

[johnlvs2run]

What astounds me the most though is the tidal wave of outrage expressed when C2 announced the first efforts at making at least the top times more valid.

I don't know of anyone expressing outrage at making the time times more valid.

The outrage was at the proposed taking apart of the rankings, by making them "only" accessible to a privileged few, i.e. those who had obtained the IND-V.

As the new rules were originally stated, the Ind V could only be obtained by rowing a time in a gym or a rowing club, and having just 1 witness there to verify the time, even though clueless about rowing, C2 and the rowing machine. Having times verified at one's own home was not acceptable!

It was even proposed by some that RowPro times be accepted even though RowPro times can easily be faked in so many different ways, and still not accept times done at one's home with witnesses.

Now that so much has been disclosed about fooling around with the Ind V on the pm3, thank you Chad, we see that having witnesses may still be the very BEST option of all. However, C2 has still not put this option at the forefront.

I am all for ensuring the top times are more valid.

The contention and outrage has been that the methods that were selected did NOT do that, and that they prevented the majority of legitimate times from having their place in the rankings. The result is not simply that C2 will give preferential treatment to a few, but overall that fewer people will be interested in the rankings and have them as a motivation for rowing.

[whp4]

What astounds me the most though is the tidal wave of outrage expressed when C2 announced the first efforts at making at least the top times more valid.

I don't know of anyone expressing outrage at making the time times more valid.

The outrage was at the proposed taking apart of the rankings, by making them "only" accessible to a privileged few, i.e. those who had obtained the IND-V.

How do you propose to increase the confidence level that an arbitrary ranking entry is valid, without somehow restricting the number of people that can do it? A technological solution is no good - not everyone will have it. A witness solution is no good, as not everyone will have a witness (or the witness may be sufficiently unfamiliar that the reliability of their statement is in question). Insisting that it be done at a sanctioned event is no good either, as not everyone is able to travel to and compete in a race (not to mention that some of us tend to be at peak fitness at times other than the racing season). I guess that leaves us only with the interplanetary brain scanner at C2 Galactic HQ ferreting out the truth, and even that seems to discriminate against those of us who might insist on wearing aluminum foil hats

The current system already effectively excludes people without internet access of some sort.

Bill

[cbrock]

My times will never be questioned by others as they remain in the bottom 50% of my age group. I really couldn't care less whether the times listed by the people ahead of me are valid or not, but at least they are a nice guide as to my lack of progress.

However I have a very strong view about those people who claim the top positions on the current year rankings and "World Record" Listings.

The principle applied to the Ind_V seems a good one to me.

If you claim a time which is faster than the third fastest ranked time from the previous year then demonstrate that by submitting some proof that validates that claim.

If one is determined enough then colluding with another person can easily cheat the system but it is MUCH BETTER than it was previously before Ind_V.

I have no time for the Dwayne Adams of this world who continually lay claim to the fastest times and NEVER compete.

It is this type of behaviour that annoys me the most. To say to all the other seasoned performers I am better than you but I will never give you an opportunity to dispute that position shows a real lack of character.

The existing Rankings allow times to be viewed by Race Results, Ind Entry, Row Row and All. Certainly for me the 2k the Rankings worth looking are the ones sorted as RACE only.

It would be nice if Concept2 could produce the same format for their "WORLD RECORDS" at other distances. That is we were able to see the fastest RACE times for these distances as well as the Ind_v times and unverified times.

I realise that Races other than 2k are few and far between but at least it would enable us to start a database to work from.

As I said previously there should be at each major meet at least one other distance for competitors to race preferably the final race of the day.

A 5k or a 10k Race not seperated by age division and limited to the first 20 or so registered applicants would add quickly to the data base of Race Records.

The crediblity of the system would be greatly improved whilst at the same time not preventing the listing of non race times as is currently the case

ChrisB

[Kinley]

My times will never be questioned by others as they remain in the bottom 50% of my age group.
ChrisB

I myself am the dictionary definition of a mediocre erger, even within my demographic (40s, female). A couple of weeks before Crash-B I ranked a training time of 7:50:3 IND. Then in Boston, I pulled 7:50.5.

It actually occurred to me that I might be called out as a fraud because I missed a previously reported time by TWO TENTHs of a second! Of course that's absurd. Totally ridiculous. But the fact that the thought entered my head testifies to the ill effect of all the the acrimony floating around the forum. It poisons the entire atmosphere, not just the rarefied strata.

[tennstrike]

I myself am the dictionary definition of a mediocre erger,

Nice row at CrashB's Kinley. I would disagree pretty strongly with your statement above. When you name is on the first page and you are in the 90th percentile of your age group, that is hardly mediocre, IMHO.

I notice that your race time is NOT on the ranking. I wonder if you untagged your IND time, would your 7:50.5 from CrashB's suddenly pop up?

[Kinley]

None of the Crash-B times are ranked. The only race results listed, in my division at least, come from overseas events.

I guess when I said "mediocre" I was thinking of my race placement (12 of 25) rather than the rankings. Thanks for your kind words.

[cbrock]

[quote="Kinley
...It actually occurred to me that I might be called out as a fraud because I missed a previously reported time by TWO TENTHs of a second!




Must say that I have never read anybody taking issue with a person who actually competes in a public event.

Most participants were 5 to 10 seconds off their previous times at Boston.
Very few PB's recorded and only one WR I think!

The fact that you overcame any self doubt, raced in a very competitive environment, and got so close to your best time would bring only praise from respondants to this column that I have read.

Well done on a great time. Your time places you in the top 5% of your age group something that people like myself can only ever dream of achieving.

Good Luck in your public competitions and maybe a medal in the future!

ChrisB

[Rockin Roland]

I'm a 44 year old that often ranks times in the top 10 for my age group where Dwayne is prominent. It is odd that someone as good as Dwayne has never performed in the public arena but that doesn't really bother me to much.

My main focus is rowing on the water where winning the race is more important than actual times. I know that there is a large number of on water rowers in the world that can beat Dwayne's times. They perform them in training and time trials quite frequently but most of them don't care much for the sport of indoor rowing or the rankings on this site. A lot of them don't even visit this website. They have far greater goals in mind. In Australia erg scores only have a 10% weighting for National Rowing Team selection.

However, there are blokes like Andreas Van Tonder(40-49 age group) that don't row on water and indoor rowing is his main sport, which he takes very seriously. He is very sceptical of Dwayne's times and rightly so because he has consistantly gone sub 6:10 in public where as Dwayne hasn't. To him every time above his in the rankings is important to him whether it is RACE, Ind_V, RowPro or individual unverified.

What really irritates me though is people who have never raced online before, questioning the validity of RowPro times in the rankings. To me RowPro is just as valid as RACE in the rankings. And I'm not just saying that because my 6:16 2K time is the highest RowPro time in the current season rankings.

The online racing community is very small relative to the greater community of ergers. We all know each other within this community such that we could easily smell a rat if someone tried a relay type bogus time. You can also download and race against RowPro times in the rankings and a relay bogus file could be detected by erratic speeding up and slowing during a change over. We also use chat, before and after a race, personalities are known, so using a faster person (and it would have to be in your own home) could also be detected.

As far as I know Nik Fleming, using e-row, recorded the fastest ever time online at OIRC in 2003. A time of 5:56.2. He has also performed similar times in public and so have I have to my current RowPro time.

Dwayne will only ever be able to silence his critics by performing in public so if he seriously wants to put a stop to all this, that's what he'll have to do.

[Chad Williams]

There was also the witnessed sub 5:50 row from the summer of 2004; someone on the forum contacted that witness and they confirmed that row, and the clear suggestion was that they were independent and didn't know Dwayne. To me, the existence of 3 independently witnessed rows, 2 sub 5:50, is the substantial evidence in favor of Dwayne's ability.

You keep referring to these sub 5.50 witnessed rows. These rows did not happen!! These rows where never confirmed by C2 as “reliable witnessed rows” that is the bones of it, C2 at no point have ever had a row of Dwayne’s witnessed, all of Dwayne’s rows have been of the “verbal witness*” kind, check with C2, they will confirm this fact. Dwayne got onto USIRT by saying what he rowed rather than showing what he says he could row.

Very nice first post to this topic, highlights everything I have been screaming about since day 1, also adds a little bit more.

*except the PM3_IND 5.46.2 row. (No other evidance available though)

[michaelb]

You keep referring to these sub 5.50 witnessed rows. These rows did not happen!!

I have asked you this question at least five times, maybe this time you will answer. How do you know those rows didn't happen?

The first two were Dwayne's qualifying rows for the USIRT. The policy at the time was to do them before a USIRT official at a time and location set by the official (Ranger's beef with the process was related to the time and place of the trial, not that trials didn't occur, or weren't witnessed). The results of those trials and the selection for the team was posted on the old, old, C2 forum. From memory, Dwayne's times were a little over 6:00 and around 5:49.

The third time was from Sept 2004. As I have posted here and on the UK forum, TomR and Deliah both contacted the independant witness for that row and that witness confirmed the row.

What evidence do you actually have to offer?

[Chad Williams]

As I keep saying, ask C2 they will confirm that no paperwork exists for these rows.

There is no record of these rows. No matter how many other ways I say it it will not change the fact that no paperwork is or has ever been available for any of the rows. Ask C2!!

What evidance do you have?

[row4life]

As I keep saying, ask C2 they will confirm that no paperwork exists for these rows.

There is no record of these rows. No matter how many other ways I say it it will not change the fact that no paperwork is or has ever been available for any of the rows. Ask C2!!

What evidance do you have?

What evidence do you have Mr. Obsessive? Oh, I forgot, you don't have any.

[Chad Williams]

Some people dream of success………while others wake up and work hard at it.

[row4life]

Some people dream of success………while others wake up and work hard at it.

Putz!!