Training in more than one zone in a session?

[rowingmillie]

Greetings,

I train OTW / erg ~6-7 times a week, compete in masters OTW regattas (42yrs old, 65kgs), pretty competitive. We have a very old school coach, not quite sure where he gets his sessions from sometimes and some of them make me wonder how productive they are in terms of achieving performance gains..

This morning the training goal involved training in more than one zone in the same session. ~15 min warm-up, then 8x1m @ 32 spm with 30 sec rest. So this part of the workout was intended to be sprint training with short recovery, i.e. lactate tolerance. Then after 4 mins easy we did 'threshold' or 'AT' work so we did 3 x 8 mins @ 26-28 spm with 4 mins rest between the 8 mins.

I had a look at my heart rate data from the session this evening (it was too dark this morning for me to see my heart rate) and was as follows:

8x1 min: Average 160, Max 167
1st 8 mins: 165 av
2nd 8 mins: 160 av
3rd 8 mins: 162 av

So question I'm interested in feedback on is whether it is good idea to combine sessions like this. It looks to me that the 8x1mins were done at too low a HR (probably due to only 30 secs rest between intervals and knowing we had the 3x8mins afterwards..), and so was this really a 4 x 8 mins AT session or was there any benefit from doing the 1 mins @ 32spm at the start? Or would we have been better off doing 4 x 8 mins @ 26-28spm?

Just to be clear - we love our coach dearly and wouldn't dare criticise any of his sessions, but he is interested in training science so would take any feedback on board!

Thanks in advance

[Cyclingman1]

There is no indication of speed/500m or wattage. Anyone call pull some SPM by controlling the slide length and making wattage a lesser priority. Training is all about adaptation to work. If one can do the sessions mentioned, then what's the issue?

[jackarabit]

I'm not an OTW coach or legend in my own mind on the erg but a little horse sense tells me you've identified the reason why the horse doesn't whip itself into a lather when privy to the entire itinerary. Whether Coach is encouraging an adaptation or measuring it, the stops and starts with rest tell a hard-mouthed horse there's more wanted in addition to high sustainable effort and it ain't down with that. Might as well remove the rest if there's no large difference in pace (by inference from your HR?) between an average over 3x8' and an average over 8x1". I'm told, however, that competitive erging and boat racing do demand speed-building starts as well as final sprints, so maybe The Respected One has reason to ask for more in one session than he's getting. Dumber horses required!

Jack

[G-dub]

Since we are speculating...I think I've read that harder efforts at around 1 minute don't negatively affect aerobic training - they aren't considered by the body and system the same as harder intervals that are longer (if that makes sense). That may be why 30 minute pieces with 1 minute hard bursts every x minutes are part of some peoples base building programs? And /or maybe it was just a way to "open the pipes" for the later work without tiring you out?

[hjs]

Since we are speculating...I think I've read that harder efforts at around 1 minute don't negatively affect aerobic training - they aren't considered by the body and system the same as harder intervals that are longer (if that makes sense). That may be why 30 minute pieces with 1 minute hard bursts every x minutes are part of some peoples base building programs? And /or maybe it was just a way to "open the pipes" for the later work without tiring you out?

That really depends on intensity and also shows you never did a 10 x 1 on / off session at max. In fact even 1 full out 1 minute could be horrible tough.

Like Jim said without knowing intensity both duration and rate say little.

[jamesg]

I'd guess LW women pull at about 6W', so 32 would be 190W, and 28 at 170W, highest. Not many 40yo get well below 8' 2k.

HR data says they were all AT. Training Band ideas collapse if the crew is already very fit: the HR level AT is needed just to get lactate up.

The ratings are high maybe because of this and also wanting to mimic low gearing afloat.

[mg6682]

Since we are speculating...I think I've read that harder efforts at around 1 minute don't negatively affect aerobic training - they aren't considered by the body and system the same as harder intervals that are longer (if that makes sense). That may be why 30 minute pieces with 1 minute hard bursts every x minutes are part of some peoples base building programs? And /or maybe it was just a way to "open the pipes" for the later work without tiring you out?

That really depends on intensity and also shows you never did a 10 x 1 on / off session at max. In fact even 1 full out 1 minute could be horrible tough.

Like Jim said without knowing intensity both duration and rate say little.

Last months c2ctc challenge was a testament to that.

[rowingmillie]

Thanks all for your thoughts / comments, think clear it was really training in only one zone despite intentions! Apologies I should have mentioned that the entire session was OTW so I don't measure / record speed or watts. My AT watts is around 175W on the C2, 2k time 7:35 (on slides).

Thanks again!

[jamesg]

Had guessed you were afloat (no Watt data), that's what coaches are for, but wondered a bit about rowing in the dark. Guessed your coach was thinking more of getting you all together at high ratings and/or in starts, rather than bothering with training bands; or do you tell him "sorry coach, have to slow down, HR's getting out of band"?.. some hope.

[jackarabit]

. . . and dark, which could be indoors with a shiny erg and a fully-functional PM5. Clues everywhere. Jack