Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] jamesg]

I think you've carried out an interesting experiment: training at a higher intensity than you would need to use in a 2k race. Intensity meaning work per stroke or SPI.<br /><br />According to my sums (could be wrong) if you pull a stroke of net length 65% of your height (or 117cm), at 77% of your weight (58kg), at rating 35, your pace would be 1:37. This gives 11 W'/stroke.<br /><br />At 13 W'/st, the length is presumably the same, but you have to pull 90% of your weight, or 68 kg. Rating 30 for 1:37.<br /><br />The lightweights cited by J Rupp have times that suggest 11W at 40, and I begin to see why they would use that stroke configuration.. Could be it's those extra 10kg that did the damage. <br /><br />With all the infinite wisdom, the infinite number of posts, messages and ergers we have here, we all bite the dust: no one suggested (as far as I know) that 13W'/stroke is just too much for someone of 75 kg, when repeated thousands of times. What do we know about the engineering of ligaments and tendons? My guess is absolutely nothing.<br /><br />Even a steel rope will break under light stress, if we bend it a sufficient number of times.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-jamesg+Jan 21 2006, 07:15 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Jan 21 2006, 07:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you've carried out an interesting experiment: training at a higher intensity than you would need to use in a 2k race. Intensity meaning work per stroke or SPI.<br /><br />According to my sums (could be wrong) if you pull a stroke of net length 65% of your height (or 117cm), at 77% of your weight (58kg), at rating 35, your pace would be 1:37. This gives 11 W'/stroke.<br /><br />At 13 W'/st, the length is presumably the same, but you have to pull 90% of your weight, or 68 kg. Rating 30 for 1:37.<br /><br />The lightweights cited by J Rupp have times that suggest 11W at 40, and I begin to see why they would use that stroke configuration.. Could be it's those extra 10kg that did the damage. <br /><br />With all the infinite wisdom, the infinite number of posts, messages and ergers we have here, we all bite the dust: no one suggested (as far as I know) that 13W'/stroke is just too much for someone of 75 kg, when repeated thousands of times. What do we know about the engineering of ligaments and tendons? My guess is absolutely nothing.<br /><br />Even a steel rope will break under light stress, if we bend it a sufficient number of times. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Excellent Summary. Yes, in principle this had all been related to Ranger in various ways, though I'm quite certain it would be easy to overlook in the vast universe of rationalizations remniscient of "running the savannah with Zatopek himself". <br /><br />Basic version: Train S10PS, using Pace based workouts, with slow and steady progression of the target paces while including pace based recovery day workouts to improve and maintain technique. (Yes, I know it sounds too simple.)<br /><br />The longer version gets quite complicated due to the various interactions of rate, peak force, displayed pace, ratio, DF, biomechanics, etc...<br /><br />This reminds me of the time Henry Ford was having trouble getting his production line working and asked Thomas Edison to help him out. Tom came by, took a look, tinkered with a few things for 20 minutes and then things ran smoothly. Henry, being pleased of course, said "Send me the bill". Upon receiving a bill for $10,000, Henry requested an itemization to justify such an amount for "20 minutes of tinkering". Tom returned the itemized invoice.<br /><br />20 minutes of tinkering - $10<br />Knowing where to tinker - $9,990<br /><br />

[[old] 1xx]

Is it just me or is anyone else just flat our bored of hearing Ranger go on and on about his new OTW stroke.... just row a race for god's sake! Personally I find it incredible that you row/workout the volumes you do, for years and years with NO injury then the week before your first race in years you get hurt...<br /><br />I seriously believe you are over anaylzing your stroke to the point of really hurting yourself. Heck I hear rumor Dwayne may even row a verified piece this weekend - - miracles are possible - Ranger might actually get back on the machine in a race and stop talking about it long enough to blow some records away. <br /><br />

[[old] Byron Drachman]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, I am _very_ happy about the stepping routine. I got my HR to 168 bpm by the end, which is more like it. The little bits of sharpening I have done must be revving my heart a bit more. Given that I had very little aerobic distress at the end of the routine (not really breathing hard at all), this is good news indeed. Now all I have to do is stretch the routine to 150 minutes. If I had done that today, I think my HR would have risen a bit over 170 by two hours or so. Then, to continue, I would have had to step along with a HR above 170 bpm. This is what I want. 30 minutes or so of stepping at the end of the routine with my heart rate above 170 bpm, flat up against my anaerobic threshold. Great for sharpening up for a 2K. I should get this done by the time WIRC rolls around, I think.<br /><br />Lots of sweat on the stepping routine. I frightened a few people in the room, I think. The pedals of the stepper filled up with sweat and, as I stepped, it sloshed back and forth over my shoes.  </td></tr></table> <br /><br />Hi Rich,<br /><br />Yes, the stepper and skipping rope make one sweat like a pig. This might be counterproductive in your case if you have a rib stress fracture. You lose calcium with sweat, and that's a lot of calcium if you're sweating hard for hours. The bones might need some of that calcium for healing.<br /><br />Byron

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basic version: Train S10PS, using Pace based workouts, with slow and steady progression of the target paces while including pace based recovery day workouts to improve and maintain technique. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I don't think I broke any bones. I was still sore this morning when I tried a little rowing, but this afternoon it feels a lot better. Things are healing quickly. I think I just traumatized my intercostals and bent my back out of shape! A lot of stretching and loosening up (with skipping and stepping) has helped these things immensely, as has staying away from pulling the chain, suspended on the handle, at high drag!<br /><br />I repeat: my "rowing with breaks" did not hurt my ribs. Upping the drag and doing intervals hurt my ribs. I now have the drag back down to 110 df., but I still have all the benefit of my "rowing with breaks" regimen. Sorry to think so, Paul, but I still believe that stroking power is the name of the game, and I now have a _ton_ of stroking power, if I want to use it.<br /><br />On the other hand, I think you are exactly right that, for racing, once you have the necessary stroking power, working up the rate ladder from 10 MPS is the thing to do, as is trading rate for pace when you are actually racing. <br /><br />So that is what I am doing now--frothing along at 1:47 @ 28 spm. Yikes! It feels like I am not even pulling! But getting used to the speed and quickness on the recovery is indeed important for racing and not an inconsiderable task. It needs to be done over hundreds of thousands of meters, I would suppose, to make it feel comfortable. <br /><br />Let's see. 36 days until WIRC. If I do 30K a day of frothing, that's about a million meters. Sounds like enough to me!<br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:47 @ 28 spm, is 1:43 @ 29 spm. That's my 5K pb, so I suppose after I froth for a while at 28 spm, I'll do some hard 5Ks at 29 spm. Trying 10Ks at this pace and rate might also be a negative sort of picnic, night in h***, etc.!<br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:43 @ 29 spm is 1:40 @ 30 spm. Sounds like 4 x 2K to me, but I might start to trade rate for pace here. 32 spm? <br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:40 @ 30 spm is 1:37 @ 31 spm. Sounds like 4 x 1K to me, but I think I should probably keep the SPI down and trade rate for pace very freely on these. 1:37 @ 34 spm or so would be fine.<br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:37 @ 31 spm, is 1:34 @ 32 spm , and I _know_ I should trade rate for pace on these. These would be nice 500s to start with, and any rate 36 spm or below would be fine.<br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:34 @ 32 spm is 1:31 @ 33. This might be my limit for 500s. I would be happy to do these at 40-42 spm, trading rate for pace to beat the band!<br /><br />ranger

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 21 2006, 12:28 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 21 2006, 12:28 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, I have certainly learned a lesson, but more about the interaction of drag with standard OTW technique, not about training volume. I have consistently trained with significant volume, including many bouts of sharpening, and never had a problem with injury until this point. <br /><br />The difficulty is the torque in a legitimate OTW rowing stroke, once you get the technique right. </td></tr></table><br /><br />You were creating far more torgue, i.e. straining against a relatively immovable flywheel, by all the rowing at low rates and high intensity, then you were by using a high drag factor.<br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You were creating far more torgue, i.e. straining against a relatively immovable flywheel, by all the rowing at low rates and high intensity, then you were by using a high drag factor.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Not at all, John. The stroking power I achieve in my workouts is not the issue. The issue is the distribution of stress. When the drag is low, you are forced to use speed, length, and timing--more and more of it--to generate power. When the drag is high, you just use brute weight and strength, which, as a lightweight, I have a limited amout of. <br /><br />I see no problem at all doing my "rowing with breaks" routine at close to 15 SPI next off season, as long as it is done at 105 df. At low drag, the stress of high stroking power falls on your legs more than your intercostals and ribs, and there is no problem with this at all, except that it is just one h*** of a lot of work. The work makes you stronger and better, though, and the inevitable result is more stroking power. <br /><br />And stroking power is the name of the game.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] hjs]

ranger,<br /><br />You are not competing and Injured (are You?). And already again talking about doing 30 K a day.<br />I have read enough about this. The days of talk are over. It's time to walk.<br />So up untill you show some results I am leaving this tread.<br /><br />Good luck

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-jamesg+Jan 21 2006, 07:15 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Jan 21 2006, 07:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think you've carried out an interesting experiment: training at a higher intensity than you would need to use in a 2k race. Intensity meaning work per stroke or SPI. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Intensity is watts over distance, not work per stroke.<br /><br />If you take 4 hours to cover 8 miles and I do 8 miles in 1 hour, then my intensity is much greater than yours.<br /><br />The length of stride or how much energy you use for each stride doesn't have anything to do with it.<br /><br />I thought we had agreed on this previously.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 21 2006, 09:14 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 21 2006, 09:14 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->working up the rate ladder from 10 MPS is the thing to do, as is trading rate for pace when you are actually racing. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Unless you can row a 5:37.0 for the 2k, then you are not strong or fast enough to do 10 meters per stroke in a race.<br /><br />The top lightweights Elia Luini and Eskild Ebbesen race at 8 meters per stroke.<br /><br />Thus the thing to do is to work up the rate ladder at 8 MPS.<br /><br />Also you do NOT want to trade rate for pace. That is one of your major problems now, i.e. as you up your rating you get slower.<br /><br />What you should want to do is to be able to increase your rating and go faster.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 21 2006, 10:34 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 21 2006, 10:34 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the drag is low, you are forced to use speed, length, and timing--more and more of it--to generate power. </td></tr></table><br />Agreed.<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the drag is high, you just use brute weight and strength, which, as a lightweight, I have a limited amout of. </td></tr></table><br />There is a difference if the drag is high or low, but not as much as when the RATING is low. Your strained ribs came from the rating being low, and not used to rowing at higher ones -- i.e. when you went higher with the rating you were trading rate for pace ( = strained ribs ) instead of using the rating to gain pace.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 21 2006, 10:34 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 21 2006, 10:34 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->stroking power is the name of the game. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Power = Watts = the Pace on the monitor<br />

[[old] george nz]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 22 2006, 06:14 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 22 2006, 06:14 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let's see. 36 days until WIRC. If I do 30K a day of frothing, that's about a million meters. Sounds like enough to me!<br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:47 @ 28 spm, is 1:43 @ 29 spm. That's my 5K pb, so I suppose after I froth for a while at 28 spm, I'll do some hard 5Ks at 29 spm. Trying 10Ks at this pace and rate might also be a negative sort of picnic, night in h***, etc.!<br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:43 @ 29 spm is 1:40 @ 30 spm. Sounds like 4 x 2K to me, but I might start to trade rate for pace here. 32 spm? <br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:40 @ 30 spm is 1:37 @ 31 spm. Sounds like 4 x 1K to me, but I think I should probably keep the SPI down and trade rate for pace very freely on these. 1:37 @ 34 spm or so would be fine.<br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:37 @ 31 spm, is  1:34 @ 32 spm , and I _know_ I should trade rate for pace on these. These would be nice 500s to start with, and any rate 36 spm or below would be fine.<br /><br />Next step on the 10MPS ladder after 1:34 @ 32 spm is 1:31 @ 33. This might be my limit for 500s. I would be happy to do these at 40-42 spm, trading rate for pace to beat the band!<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Dont forget you are racing over the next 4 weekends as well - so factor that into your progression<br /><br />George<br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There is a difference if the drag is high or low, but not as much as when the RATING is low. Your strained ribs came from the rating being low, and not used to rowing at higher ones -- i.e. when you went higher with the rating you were trading rate for pace ( = strained ribs ) instead of using the rating to gain pace.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, John. The strain came from the high drag not from the high rate. I am back down to low drag (110 df.) and feeling better every moment, even though I am now again rowing at high rates.<br /><br />Back to frothing and intervals, tomorrow. I hope to be ready to race in Cincinnati. <br /><br />Trauma is over.<br /><br />Still 5 weeks to WIRC. Plenty of time.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dont forget you are racing over the next 4 weekends as well - so factor that into your progression </td></tr></table><br /><br />I am training through the races. The races are just to get used to racing again. They won't disturb my training. <br /><br />I need to race 6:51 to qualify for Boston and earn a plane ticket to WIrC. I don't think that will be too hard. <br /><br />You think I should worry or something? Or so some special race preparation? Taper? <br /><br />I don't understand.<br /><br />In training, I would like to do 4 x 2K in 6:40. <br /><br />Last time I sharpened, I did a 6:32 2K in practice, just doing 2K +2 for 1K, then 2K +1 for 500m, then all out for the last 500m. BTW, a 2K in this format a nice workout: 1:39, 1:39, 1:38, 1:35.<br /><br />ranger