Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] dadams]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 12 2006, 07:18 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 12 2006, 07:18 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 12 2006, 02:46 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 12 2006, 02:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 12 2006, 03:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 12 2006, 03:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br />"She was ready.  Her 'overnight success' was six or seven years in the making."<br /><br />And being 25 now, that has here rowing for almost a third of her life, and all of her adult life.  She should be a seriousl threat for the World Cups and 2008 Olympics. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Six or seven years as a sweep rower, not a sculler. There is a big difference. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Really?!?!? I'm shocked ot find that out... <br /><br />Yes, there is, but you left out a critical part of what I had quoted, "women who had done well in the teams sculling trials". I'm not sure how much exposure the team members get to sculling, but it's likely enough to make them what we might call competent, and for that class of athlete proficency comes pretty quickly. I taught myself to scull in a racing single over a summer vacation with 2 years of sweep rowing. I was still awful, but managed to do okay in a 7 mile race against a lot of folks with longer histories (2nd place, ~44 minutes). Kind of like strapping enough power to a brick to make it fly. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ok...then here is a second example. My orginal question. Why spend all the time to learn the stroke? Especially on an erg. When we all know that you can be a complete slob and row a monster time. I'm a prime example. My erg stroke would never work in a boat, but I've still pulled a sub 5:50.

[[old] John Rupp]

Dwayne,<br /><br />Maybe you should take Paul's advice and cut back to 30 minutes a day.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 13 2006, 01:14 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 13 2006, 01:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok...then here is a second example. My orginal question. Why spend all the time to learn the stroke? Especially on an erg. When we all know that you can be a complete slob and row a monster time. I'm a prime example. My erg stroke would never work in a boat, but I've still pulled a sub 5:50. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />This is getting tough to follow, but we train people to the basic stroke on the Erg so that they have a stable platform on which to learn. Similarly to why we would start a person out sculling in an Alden or Aero, then advance to narrower boats.<br /><br />Think of the Erg as the most stable wherry in the world, impossible to flip (though I've seen some that probably should have).<br /><br />I don't think I've ever indicated that it's not possible to pull a fast Erg time with a crap stroke, in fact I think that's pretty much how my relationship with Ranger got started. Something along the lines of "Wow, just imagine how fast you could go if your stroke was not crap!" (I know, not very tactful, but it was effective.) <br /><br />Michelles best Erg is a 6:35, which is pretty good, she's had a lot of Sweep experience, and as it appears, took to learning sculling and has transferred some skills. Who knows whats in the future, perhaps whatever was holding her back in the Sweeps will be worked out doing some sculling and that will be her best chance in the future. Time will tell.<br /><br />Not sure I get your point about being fast but sloppy on the Erg, do you think that improving technique would not make you even faster?<br /><br />What you likely need to do to go fast in a boat is to find a partner of similar force profile, and a boat big enough to float the both of you. Or row a 1x.

[[old] John Rupp]

Dwayne,<br /><br />Maybe if you take Paul's advice you can "improve, from 5:47 to a 6:34.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 01:24 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 01:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dwayne,<br />Maybe you should take Paul's advice and cut back to 30 minutes a day. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I've never given, nor been asked by Dwayne for specific advice. Though if he were to be so inclined, that would be an interesting project indeed. <br /><br />I tend to plan schedules that require less than an hour a day for my athletes, they seem to get good results, better than a lot of folks that spend far more time on the Erg.<br /><br />Perhaps you should use your mathematical skills to come up with a "training time" adjustment, but of course that would make your performances seem even worse, since no matter how many hours you throw at it you continue to get slower, must be an awful feeling.<br /><br />Kind of like "Name that tune", "Produce that WR."<br />"I can produce a WR in 10 million meters of training."<br />"I can produce a WR in 2 million training meters."<br />Okay! Produce that WR.<br />Done.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 02:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 02:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've never given, nor been asked by Dwayne for specific advice.  Though if he were to be so inclined, that would be an interesting project indeed ... to come up with a "training time" adjustment, but of course that would make your performances seem even worse, since no matter how many hours you throw at it you continue to get slower, must be an awful feeling. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes I can imagine it would be. <br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 13 2006, 03:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 13 2006, 03:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Jan 13 2006, 02:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 13 2006, 02:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've never given, nor been asked by Dwayne for specific advice.  Though if he were to be so inclined, that would be an interesting project indeed ... to come up with a "training time" adjustment, but of course that would make your performances seem even worse, since no matter how many hours you throw at it you continue to get slower, must be an awful feeling. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes I can imagine it would be. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No need to frown, you still have time to change, it's never to late to learn.

[[old] Kappy]

<br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thought I'd beep in on this for a moment.<br /><br />It amazes me how long is being spent on 'perfecting' the stroke, and getting all the mechanics down pat.<br /><br />Michelle Guarette (spelling?) steps into a single (for the first time ever I believe) on what can be called a whim, and within a couple of months becomes rowings female athlete of the year, and quite possibly the best female sculler in the US.<br /><br />Ponder that..... </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />That's why we race the boats against each other in order to find out who is fastest on the water. <br /><br />I mean - who knew? Not only was Michelle the best in the US in the single when she focused on it - she was the best we've had since....Anne Marden?<br /><br />If victory in the single was given to an athlete by a coach on the basis of time spend 'mastering the stroke' combined with erg score and some "mystery" factors only know to coaches' -- then rowing would be a judged sport like gymnastics, ice dancing and boxing. <br /><br />Fortunately rowing comes down to racing.<br /><br />(That and bickering I mean.)

[[old] John Rupp]

Kappy, very well said.

[[old] Roland Baltutis]

<!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 13 2006, 04:14 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 13 2006, 04:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br /><br />Ok...then here is a second example. My orginal question. Why spend all the time to learn the stroke? Especially on an erg. When we all know that you can be a complete slob and row a monster time. I'm a prime example. My erg stroke would never work in a boat, but I've still pulled a sub 5:50. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Funny you should say that Dwayne. I use different technique on the erg than what I use in a boat. People that have seen me race both on water and in a boat have commented on the distinctly different techniques that I use. In fact a couple of years back, when I did the WIRC and spent about 80% of my rowing training on the erg and 20% in a boat, my technique in the boat was buggered up by doing too much training on the erg. It took a long time to get my boat technique back to what it was prior to WIRC. Hence the reason for my recent posts encouraging C2 to build an erg with balance and moving flywheel components.<br /><br />As you also row in a boat Dwayne do you find that you have had similar experiences?<br /><br />I now spend far more time in a boat (both sweep oar & scull) than on the erg for fear of the erg stuffing up my technique again. I have tried using my boat technique on the erg and found that I go slower so have to revert back to my erg technique to apply adequate pressure on the stationary flywheel.<br /><br />Rockin Roland

[[old] george nz]

<!--QuoteBegin-Roland Baltutis+Jan 14 2006, 07:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Roland Baltutis @ Jan 14 2006, 07:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 13 2006, 04:14 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 13 2006, 04:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br /><br />Ok...then here is a second example. My orginal question. Why spend all the time to learn the stroke? Especially on an erg. When we all know that you can be a complete slob and row a monster time. I'm a prime example. My erg stroke would never work in a boat, but I've still pulled a sub 5:50. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Funny you should say that Dwayne. I use different technique on the erg than what I use in a boat. People that have seen me race both on water and in a boat have commented on the distinctly different techniques that I use. In fact a couple of years back, when I did the WIRC and spent about 80% of my rowing training on the erg and 20% in a boat, my technique in the boat was buggered up by doing too much training on the erg. It took a long time to get my boat technique back to what it was prior to WIRC. Hence the reason for my recent posts encouraging C2 to build an erg with balance and moving flywheel components.<br /><br />As you also row in a boat Dwayne do you find that you have had similar experiences?<br /><br />I now spend far more time in a boat (both sweep oar & scull) than on the erg for fear of the erg stuffing up my technique again. I have tried using my boat technique on the erg and found that I go slower so have to revert back to my erg technique to apply adequate pressure on the stationary flywheel.<br /><br />Rockin Roland <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Hi Roland,<br /><br />would you care to expand on the differences if you have time between the 2 techniques from your own experiences<br /><br />tks George

[[old] Roland Baltutis]

<!--QuoteBegin-george nz+Jan 14 2006, 03:38 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Jan 14 2006, 03:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Roland Baltutis+Jan 14 2006, 07:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Roland Baltutis @ Jan 14 2006, 07:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 13 2006, 04:14 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 13 2006, 04:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br /><br />Ok...then here is a second example. My orginal question. Why spend all the time to learn the stroke? Especially on an erg. When we all know that you can be a complete slob and row a monster time. I'm a prime example. My erg stroke would never work in a boat, but I've still pulled a sub 5:50. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Funny you should say that Dwayne. I use different technique on the erg than what I use in a boat. People that have seen me race both on water and in a boat have commented on the distinctly different techniques that I use. In fact a couple of years back, when I did the WIRC and spent about 80% of my rowing training on the erg and 20% in a boat, my technique in the boat was buggered up by doing too much training on the erg. It took a long time to get my boat technique back to what it was prior to WIRC. Hence the reason for my recent posts encouraging C2 to build an erg with balance and moving flywheel components.<br /><br />As you also row in a boat Dwayne do you find that you have had similar experiences?<br /><br />I now spend far more time in a boat (both sweep oar & scull) than on the erg for fear of the erg stuffing up my technique again. I have tried using my boat technique on the erg and found that I go slower so have to revert back to my erg technique to apply adequate pressure on the stationary flywheel.<br /><br />Rockin Roland <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Hi Roland,<br /><br />would you care to expand on the differences if you have time between the 2 techniques from your own experiences<br /><br />tks George <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />That's a difficult one to answer George because I haven't seen myself row on video in a boat or erg to compare. I can only go on feedback from others that have seen me do both activities and what I feel myself. I guess on the erg I take shortcuts at the catch and finish to kep the pressure on the flywheel. Although I haven't seen my power curves between the two I'm sure that they would be different. I think that power on the handle in the boat would be more uniform throughout the stroke and more intense in the first part of the stroke on the erg. Also on the erg my arms and upper body are more rigid and tense because there is no need to feel for balance like in a boat. My arms and upper body are definitely more relaxed in the boat.<br /><br />Hope that helps.<br /><br />Rockin Roland

[[old] george nz]

Tks Roland

[[old] dadams]

<!--QuoteBegin-Roland Baltutis+Jan 14 2006, 01:41 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Roland Baltutis @ Jan 14 2006, 01:41 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-dadams+Jan 13 2006, 04:14 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dadams @ Jan 13 2006, 04:14 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><br /><br />Ok...then here is a second example. My orginal question. Why spend all the time to learn the stroke? Especially on an erg. When we all know that you can be a complete slob and row a monster time. I'm a prime example. My erg stroke would never work in a boat, but I've still pulled a sub 5:50. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Funny you should say that Dwayne. I use different technique on the erg than what I use in a boat. People that have seen me race both on water and in a boat have commented on the distinctly different techniques that I use. In fact a couple of years back, when I did the WIRC and spent about 80% of my rowing training on the erg and 20% in a boat, my technique in the boat was buggered up by doing too much training on the erg. It took a long time to get my boat technique back to what it was prior to WIRC. Hence the reason for my recent posts encouraging C2 to build an erg with balance and moving flywheel components.<br /><br />As you also row in a boat Dwayne do you find that you have had similar experiences?<br /><br />I now spend far more time in a boat (both sweep oar & scull) than on the erg for fear of the erg stuffing up my technique again. I have tried using my boat technique on the erg and found that I go slower so have to revert back to my erg technique to apply adequate pressure on the stationary flywheel.<br /><br />Rockin Roland <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have very similar results. Most of the time I spent training for Master Worlds this past July was to 'fix' my erg technique. Meaning that I was bringing all of that into the boat. Which, as you know, does not make for a fast boat.<br /><br />I'm going to be getting back into the boat for the first time since the summer in Feb., and am sure to have the same issues all over again.

[[old] Kappy]

[/quote]<br /><br />I have very similar results. Most of the time I spent training for Master Worlds this past July was to 'fix' my erg technique. Meaning that I was bringing all of that into the boat. Which, as you know, does not make for a fast boat. <br />[/quote]<br /><br />Just because you did not win does not mean you did not make a fast boat!<br /><br />In terms of being frustrated when you can crush people on the erg and then can not do the same on the water - some people don't 'get' the erg. So you don't really always have a fair assesment of how much 'better' you should be. And other people don't even 'get on' the erg - so you don't have any information on how you stack up against them at all. <br /><br />The erg doesn't really read the finish. Thats why so many people futz around with the finish on the erg. You used to have to submit your bench pulls with your erg score as part of selection. I think people are more comfortable relying on the erg today because they assume that if you've got the first two parts of the drive down - you probably have a good finish too. But you might want to check out how your bench pulls stack up to make sure.