Erging in "the black hole"?

[jackarabit]

Lindsay's been watching The Curious Case of Benjamin Button again. Here's to the exceptions on the arms of the curve! Jack

[Cyclingman1]

In my own case, the honeymoon period came after my aortic valve replacement and 3XCABG, just before I turned 79. My earlier arguing period was from age 69 to 71,

There is a whole perspective shift that occurs as one gets older. Up until 60, 70, etc [varies per person], everyone talks about cardiovascular fitness. All it takes is a serious illness or medical condition to change that. After that, one talks primarily about health. You have to be healthy to get fit and now health either is or has been an obstacle to getting or staying fit.

Without going through a whole medical history, my "aha" moment came with a DVT and pulmonary embolism (PE) at age 65; it took about a yr for my echocardiogram to return to normal even though I actually "felt" OK. The next DVT last yr (2014) was worse in terms of how it felt. I'm just getting over it and I'm starting to do OK on erg. I have to now start all discussions about erging goals with "if I can stay well." That is one aspect of what it means to be on the downslope of erging performance. I thought I was immune from all of this - invincible. Guess what, I wasn't. Of course, not all will have an "event." There is the gradual decline too, which is slightly less noticeable. If you do have an "event," there will be no doubt that decline is on the front doorstep.

[iain]

Inspiring stuff from legends of erging! Oh to stay the course half as well!

Re original question, I am also unclear what 80% of UT1 is. For healthy people, long rows at UT 1 limit are fine! While I haven't read this article, generally people's mistake is going into AT too often so I suspect this is the "Black hole". That said, when starting out anything helps, it takes time to plateau however bad the program! Indeed I have recently restarted after 3 years off. I started with only a small gap between LSD paces and intervals. Most would cut the intervals, but I like the variety and wanted to get used to how they feel. 3 months in I have kept the pace for the LSDs the same but increased the distance from 5k initially to 12k now, while intervals are now 8S/500m quicker and are still probably mainly a zone below where they should be. As the LSDs get easier and intervals faster I will establish a more conventional program with clear segregation.

- Iain

[Cyclingman1]

Inspiring stuff from legends of erging! Oh to stay the course half as well!

Thanks for the comment, but I'm not even close to Bob S in terms of rowing accomplishment. He is a legend. I'm a wannabe.

3 months in I have kept the pace for the LSDs the same but increased the distance from 5k initially to 12k now, while intervals are now 8S/500m quicker and are still probably mainly a zone below where they should be.

It seems like you have a plan, keeping the pace according to what you want/need to do. I know I'm not worried about some black hole even though I tend to keep the intensity up compared to others.

[Edward4492]

Iain, I think you pegged it. I found if I cap my long (10-15k) rows at 80% HR I can do them day after day and am fresh for the intervals. I do most of these at 20r, and the only two parameters I watch are HR and rate. I was surprised to find out when I first started using a monitor that I was working over 90% for long periods of time. I now limit those efforts to once a week. That's the "black whole"; going ; long and hard every day.

[Myopic Squirrel]

"...but I'm not even close to Bob S in terms of rowing accomplishment. He is a legend. I'm a wannabe." Jim, I wouldn't be too hard on myself. Compared to the general population of those of us in your general age group, you are light years ahead of most of us. And then considering the sub-set of ergers (if that is a word) in your age group with your accomplishments - very impressive. You & Bob serve as inspiration for we "wannabe's".

[Hillclimber]

This black hole seems to inform the decades-old observation of running, cycling, and rowing experts: "The most common training mistake is that most .... do not go easy enough on the easy days, or hard enough on the hard days."

[G-dub]

Yeah, I think the article came from Stephen Seilers research and the now getting more poplar 80/20 polarized training plan that his research advocates.

[Hillclimber]

Yeah, I think the article came from Stephen Seilers research and the now getting more poplar 80/20 polarized training plan that his research advocates.

G-dub, I think this idea has been around a long time. I recall reading about it from Edmund Burke articles in Bicycling magazine in the early 80s.

[G-dub]

yeah, it was my impression that it's not so much a radical idea, but what successful endurance programs have learned to do so that gains can be made over the long term.

[iain]

Isn't the radical approach that this same approach is appropriate for people training 6 hours a week when this has previously ben primarily applied (and researched) for those training much more?

- Iain

[DuffyF56]

So again...does anyone have access to the original research referred to in the article?

[Trev]

http://www.canal-insep.fr/fr/training-p ... seiler-mov

Here a video of Seiler which explains the ideas well.

Here is an article which is worth reading.

http://www.sportsci.org/2009/ss.htm

[maestroak]

I can't stand this long and slow aspect, not because I think I know better but because it doesn't comport with my world view. I am a bit over 7 million meters on the erg and average like 1.59.4/500m over all of them. For the last 5 million or so every split has been under or exactly 2:00. If I want to do a "warm up" I'll row it at exactly 2:00 down within a couple meters (always on low side). I am lower than a 6 hour a week guy, I'm between 10-18 hours a month. Someone once on here asked why on earth I'd row everything at sub 2 and I don't have a good answer other than I'm stubborn and have a really hard time going slower. Just to give you an idea of how sick I am in this regard, on the day of the Crash-Bs I decided to row a sub7 2K because I hadn't rowed one this year and want to try to do it every year until I can't anymore. BUT, I typically row at least 10K on the weekend and didn't want to miss my workout. So I rowed a "warm up" of 3500m just under 2'/500, then did the 2K, then rowed a 5K to finish my workout (also at just under 2'/500). Not sure why I wrote this as I have no doubt I'm very suboptimal and punishing myself a bit while getting not return for it. But on some level that's it, I like that feeling, I like the feeling of being spent that I don't get from a lower intensity workout.

The idea of improvement is interesting too. I am pretty sure I rowed my best 2K I'll ever row last year and for most of my personal bests I think they may be behind me, at the very least I'm fairly certain I do not have the potential for significant gains. I'm 43 and enjoyed the run up and continuing to find new plateaus and I'm at a place of physical fitness I never knew in my life thanks only to the erg. I am pretty sure the plateaus ended, though. It's been a fun ride though, now the challenge is to keep maintenance as interesting as the run up was.

[G-dub]

Isn't the radical approach that this same approach is appropriate for people training 6 hours a week when this has previously ben primarily applied (and researched) for those training much more?

- Iain

Good point. Most, me included, assumed that if you had less time you had to go harder as a higher percentage of total work - or essentially skip the lower heart rate work.