Ranger - News To Shock

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 10th, 2006, 3:31 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 10 2006, 11:16 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>the guy rowed with the Boat Race Crew when he was twice the age of the rest of the rowers there. </td></tr></table><br /><br />But almost ten years after he set the 50s hwt erg record of 6:07. Could be wrong, I guess, but at that time, I don't think he rowed on the water.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, you are wrong.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Alistair Potts RSR)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>So this is <b>September 97</b> and we're all getting ready for another Boat<br />Race and we've got some big new names in the squad but it is the curious<br />Mr Ripley that sticks out more than all.<br /><br />Imagine if Bjorn Borg joined your rowing team. Or Jack Nicklaus. Or<br />Jimmy Conners. Same sort of thing. <b>Andy Ripley's forty-nine</b> but was a<br />rugby super-hero, and afterwards found fame on the BBC's SuperStars<br />programme, which was basically about being hard. Squat jumps, cycling,<br />swimming and running like an idiot, that sort of thing.<br /><br />Only the thing is we don't _really_ know him we're all too young. Or<br />German, or American. Most of the squad are less than half his age and<br />he's a pretty unorthodox shape for a rower. He's a rugby forward. I<br />guess the coaches know him better, but he's older than them too. </td></tr></table>

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 10th, 2006, 3:33 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>a legend of an athlete </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sure, everyone knows that.<br /><br />But was he an OTW rower 10 years ago?<br /><br />ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 10th, 2006, 3:35 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>So this is September 97 </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ah. Sorry. Didn't know. Thanks for the correction.<br /><br />ranger

[old] george nz · Post by **[old] george nz** » January 10th, 2006, 4:46 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 11 2006, 07:11 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Are you saying that 55yr olds are inherently weaker than 25 year olds? Very strange. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Just the opposite. I am saying that 25-year-olds can rev their tickers higher than 55-year-olds and therefore can use low drag to achieve a higher rate and faster time, while 55-year-olds can't (without giving up the power in their strokes, in equal measure).<br /><br />The assumption is that, at the limits of possibility, reving the rate _way_ up (to 40 spm and above) while maintaining stroking power severely revs the ticker. <b>55-year-olds have a limited ticker</b>, so they need to get pace in some other way, if they can, such as from increased resistance on the chain, which lengthens the drive of the stroke and therefore increases the pace without the full effort of holding stroking power and upping the rate (into the stratosphere), even though, for a 25-year-old, this stiffening up of the chain limits the ability of those who can to rev the rate (and the ticker) compared to what might be possible with a lighter chain (i.e., lower drag). <br /><br />Rowing at high drag seems to have been the strategy of all of the best 50s rowers: Freed, Ripley, Watt, myself, etc. Did Tardieu row at high drag? He might have. He really yanked the chain, too. When he was doing his thing, Tardieu wasn't really rowing, either; he was erging (and many rowers, watching Tardieu, as I remember, would say so).<br /><br />The best 50s ergers (have) all developed "erg" strokes, just as I have. <br /><br />"Tricks" of the trade!<br /><br /> <br /><br />The biggest "trick" of the trade might be this, one that I will try to demonstrate this winter: If you know how to row (well, OTW, etc.) you can _really_ get goin', if you have an "erg" stroke, too! You can just combine the two. I am not sure that Ripley, Watt, Tardieu, or Freed did this. Ripley and Tardieu were not OTW rowers. Supposedly, Freed didn't row very well OTW (why? well, maybe he was using an erg stroke! not good!), and Watt is somewhat new to rowing on the water. He was a kayaker. When I set my lwt world records back in 2003, I had also never rowed OTW. Watt is now a good OTW rower. <b>This might explain his unusually impressive times of late, especially the jump he made from 6:29 or so down to 6:25.8</b> last year. <b>What is Watt doing, perhaps? Rowing at high drag </b>with a good, well trained OTW stroke, modified as it might need to be to withstand the higher drag that characterizes a good erg stroke. <br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />As to the points I have bolded:<br /><br />You do not have the HR of a 55year old as you have pointed out many times hence this does not apply to you. HR is related to work not stroke rate - hence people hitting maximal Hrs when doing a 30min / 20r piece.<br /><br />Tell me when did you meet Graham Watt or speak to him. As you know I have and I was sitting next to him when he broke the WR. He did not have a Df of above 150 as you have said and he did not have an exceptionally high SR (probably 34-36). so just where are you getting your information from ?<br /><br />I like the way you keep dropping the names of people into your posts who you know little about or have even disparaged in the past (Freed) as a partial justification for the 'dramatic' turnaround you have made of late to what you have spent the last 3 years developing.<br /><br />Now it is back to high drag (weightlifting) and yanking the chain at high rates (no matter what you contend about your perfect stroke) - so now you have 'fast legs' at a drag of 188df, I dont think so, but I bet you are picking up the catch early now and no problem with suspension at a drag that even the big HW's dont row at.<br /><br />Have you written to Dwayne yet and told him he has got it all wrong as you dropped his name into your posts many times as 'living proof' of the advantage of low drags for racing.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 10th, 2006, 4:58 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Jan 10 2006, 11:31 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Alistair Potts RSR)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>So this is <b>September 97</b> and we're all getting ready for another Boat<br />Race and we've got some big new names in the squad but it is the curious<br />Mr Ripley that sticks out more than all.<br /><br />Imagine if Bjorn Borg joined your rowing team. Or Jack Nicklaus. Or<br />Jimmy Conners. Same sort of thing. <b>Andy Ripley's forty-nine</b> but was a<br />rugby super-hero, and afterwards found fame on the BBC's SuperStars<br />programme, which was basically about being hard. Squat jumps, cycling,<br />swimming and running like an idiot, that sort of thing.<br /><br />Only the thing is we don't _really_ know him we're all too young. Or<br />German, or American. Most of the squad are less than half his age and<br />he's a pretty unorthodox shape for a rower. He's a rugby forward. I<br />guess the coaches know him better, but he's older than them too. </td></tr></table> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And the rest of the story, just because it's so good.<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Alistair Potts RSR)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>So we start off with all the physiological tests in the gym which<br />involve weights and ergs and lactate tolerance and pull-ups and Andy's<br />mostly middle of the pack of about 35 contenders, maybe a bit above<br />average. But then we do the peak power on the erg which is a bit of a<br />laugh, six strokes see how low you can split. I don't remember the<br />results, but I remember hoping that someone would go under 1:00 - no-one<br />did. What I do remember is that Andy, this huge quiet guy with crazy<br />hair, was second. Out of everyone. Olympic medallists included.<br /><br />And so things settle into their normal routine and Andy just becomes one<br />of the boys. He's not self-consciously trying to get down with the kids,<br />he's just chatting and laughing and getting on with it and very quickly<br />everyone really forgets he's different (except when the press turn up)<br />and he's just one of the guys at the lower end of the squad trying to<br />keep improving enough to survive the next round of chops. If I'd have<br />been him I'd have driven myself to Ely rather than sit in a rubbish<br />minibus. But that wasn't his style. Everyone likes him, but everyone's<br />looking out for themselves too. The thing is he's really a novice at<br />rowing, he's just been at it a year.<br /><br />Of course he was strong as an ox. For an old bloke he was unbelievable.<br />At the erg championships he was frustrated that he was a little short of<br />his fiftieth birthday which would have meant a different world record. I<br />don't remember his time but I know he did set a new WR in his fifties of<br />6.07.<br /><br />So one Saturday between outings Robin announces we have to watch one of<br />his videos which is pretty normal so we all pile into the video room<br />preparing for twenty minutes of gawping at ourselves and Robin says bla<br />bla technique bla bla pay attention bla bla catch release bla bla and<br />presses the play button and we get... "Andy Ripley's Workout for MEN" on<br />video which someone had picked up from a bargain bin for 99p or<br />something. Complete with cheesy music. A good gag.<br /><br />The writing was on the wall when Andy didn't get selected for the two<br />Trial 8s in December. But Harry's been really keen to get Andy rowing<br />well. Harry would always spend an extra amount of time with any boat<br />Andy was in, I think he was really really keen to see if he could get<br />him up to scratch. I spent many hours in the coaching launch with Harry<br />that winter and Andy would often be in some pretty awful quad which just<br />looked miserable on a cold winter day and I'd be freezing to death but<br />Harry would have them stop and do drills and stuff. I think all the<br />coaches wanted to keep Andy on. But they're pros, and fair, and know it<br />would be wrong on all fronts to cut him any slack when it comes to<br />selection. So they didn't.<br /><br />So it's now early January and we've only been back from Spain for a<br />short time and the way it works is that you all turn up every day and<br />Robin reads out the crew lists and it's pretty much mix and match with a<br />good mixture of eights and fours and pairs. Only today he's reading off<br />what's obviously an A crew, we've got Smith and Forster and Webber and<br />Crombie and the rest of what would be the Blue Boat. I think Story was<br />the only one not there. So Ripley fills his spot.<br /><br />And we're psyched because this is the first time the (nearly) best eight<br />have been out and I'm thinking the coaches are trying an new idea to get<br />Ripley rowing better by sticking him with the best possible people. And<br />it's an awesome January afternoon with no wind and no clouds and the<br />boys are rowing really well. And we're coming home after an 22k outing<br />and we all know it's very good and we're excited because this is the<br />boat. It's late in the afternoon maybe 5pm and the water looks like oil<br />and the only colours are deep purples and oranges and reds because the<br />sun's almost gone and I remember it so clearly because I was thinking<br />this is so strong we're going to go faster than any boat ever, I think<br />everyone was so excited at what Robin and Harry had built, and wandered<br />what Andy was thinking because pretty much this was a good as it gets.<br />And I'm silent for a change because the coaching boat's gone off and all<br />you can hear is the boat and I can see the Cathedral which is the only<br />thing you ever see at Ely. Apart from cows and reeds. And the Cathedral<br />is black against the purple sky, and we're all thinking about the Race.<br />And the boat is flying at twenty-two.<br /><br />Of course it wasn't a strategy to improve Ripley at all, it was (in his<br />own words) 'a last cigarette offered to a condemned man'. It was the<br />only time the coaches did anything sentimental in all the time I was at<br />Cambridge. Without wanting to sound too melodramatic, I think that was<br />the last time I saw Andy. That's how it works. People just disappear.<br />Andy did that very evening.<br /><br />Three months later, and Andy wrote a great piece about his time with<br />CUBC for the Boat Race programme. It said that after he was dropped, he<br />went back to his college boat club to row on the Cam. And as he toiled<br />with the rest of his crew, his cox exhorted: "Row like Andy". No-one had<br />ever said that before. It made me smile. I like to think Harry smiled too.<br /><br />*****<br /><br />He's battling prostate cancer now:<br /><a href='http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 51,00.html' target='_blank'>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 00.html</a> <br /> </td></tr></table>

[old] dennish · Post by **[old] dennish** » January 10th, 2006, 11:08 pm

Arrrrgh. Tardieu was a on the water rower first and foremost and better there than as an erger, Graham is better on the water than the erg, Silver at World Masters games in the single, and since there are no lightweight events at the international level in masters rowing, he bested world class heavywieghts. Incidentally the winner was also a lightweight. While he was here last summer Graham and I had several opportunities to erg together and I never saw DF over 150 or rates over mid 30's. In the double we raced, he stroked and was very competent and comfortable in the low to mid 30's, unfortunately his bowman was not and we didn't make finals against the big boys. <br /> > If you are going to drop names get the facts.<br /> >I hate to admit it but Lwt. Masters racing is a sideshow<br /> everywhere on the water and only the very best technical<br /> lwts show very well in international masters competitions. <br /> my 2 cents. dennnis

[old] george nz · Post by **[old] george nz** » January 11th, 2006, 12:00 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(dennish @ Jan 11 2006, 04:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Arrrrgh. Tardieu was a on the water rower first and foremost and better there than as an erger, Graham is better on the water than the erg, Silver at World Masters games in the single, and since there are no lightweight events at the international level in masters rowing, he bested world class heavywieghts. Incidentally the winner was also a lightweight. While he was here last summer Graham and I had several opportunities to erg together and I never saw DF over 150 or rates over mid 30's. In the double we raced, he stroked and was very competent and comfortable in the low to mid 30's, unfortunately his bowman was not and we didn't make finals against the big boys. <br /> > If you are going to drop names get the facts.<br /> >I hate to admit it but Lwt. Masters racing is a sideshow<br /> everywhere on the water and only the very best technical<br /> lwts show very well in international masters competitions. <br /> my 2 cents. dennnis <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Thankyou Dennis for confirming what I posted earlier about Graham.<br /><br />George

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 11th, 2006, 4:26 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I never saw DF over 150 </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes. 150 df. might be what I will race at, too. It is entirely adequate. If I can race higher, it might be better, though. The aim is to go as fast as you can.<br /><br />Ripley rows on max drag. Xeno says he rows at high drag. Freed rows on high drag. Nothing unusual about this.<br /><br />ranger

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » January 11th, 2006, 4:53 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 11 2006, 09:26 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I never saw DF over 150 </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Ripley rows on max drag. Xeno says he rows at high drag. Freed rows on high drag. Nothing unusual about this.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Those guys always use high drags, they don't use een few years very low drag and change it overnight. That's the unusual part.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 11th, 2006, 8:12 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Those guys always use high drags </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have always raced at high drag. Training at low drag just makes your legs quick and your timing precise. Then you can use these things to race at high drag, if you know how to do it and have been successful with it, as I have.<br /><br />ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » January 11th, 2006, 8:15 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Graham is better on the water than the erg </td></tr></table><br /><br />How long has Graham been rowing on the water? How many times has he racing in the World Masters Games?<br /><br />ranger

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » January 11th, 2006, 8:52 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 8 2005, 11:49 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Sorry to Dwayne for bringing him up again, but it is interesting that when Dwayne switched from rowing at high drag and collapsing the major levers, pulling with a short stroke, as I used to do, too, his 2K time dropped 16 seconds, 4 seconds per 500m, from 6:03 to 5:47. <br /><br />There was no conscious attempt to do this, but I am now rowing comfortably at 1:52 @ 18 spm, which, in the WP is L4 rowing at a 1:33 pace 2K target. My 2K pb is 1:37, four seconds per 500m slower. <br /><br />And sure enough: With my old stroke, rowing at high drag and collapsing the levers, I used to do long rows at 1:57 @ 18 spm, rowing at a 1:37 2K target.<br /><br /> <br /><br />_Very_ interesting. <br /><br />I'm delighted with this. Getting this effect has taken a _load_ of sweat.<br /><br />My stroke on the PM3 is now a perfect semi-circle: fat middle.<br /><br />105 df.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />1 month ago. The benifits of low drag.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » January 11th, 2006, 9:01 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Jan 11 2006, 04:52 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 8 2005, 11:49 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Sorry to Dwayne for bringing him up again, but it is interesting that when Dwayne switched from rowing at high drag and collapsing the major levers, pulling with a short stroke, as I used to do, too, his 2K time dropped 16 seconds, 4 seconds per 500m, from 6:03 to 5:47. <br /><br />There was no conscious attempt to do this, but I am now rowing comfortably at 1:52 @ 18 spm, which, in the WP is L4 rowing at a 1:33 pace 2K target. My 2K pb is 1:37, four seconds per 500m slower. <br /><br />And sure enough: With my old stroke, rowing at high drag and collapsing the levers, I used to do long rows at 1:57 @ 18 spm, rowing at a 1:37 2K target.<br /><br /> <br /><br />_Very_ interesting. <br /><br />I'm delighted with this. Getting this effect has taken a _load_ of sweat.<br /><br />My stroke on the PM3 is now a perfect semi-circle: fat middle.<br /><br />105 df.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />1 month ago. The benifits of low drag. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />hjs,<br /><br />Don't be bringing up facts, or things that have been said in the past as examples to support your current questions or postitions, those things are just "meaningless" now.<br /><br />This is just a free-for-all disemination of information and there is no need for any form of meaningful organization, factual basis, or reasonable thought processes.<br /><br />Go with the flow.

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » January 11th, 2006, 9:18 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 22 2005, 06:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Soon you'll be back up to 200 df and 36-38 spm! </td></tr></table><br /><br />Bit of a difference between 200 df. and 122 df. <br /><br />And now each bit of additional drag _lowers_ my spm (for the same pace).<br /><br />Proper leverage, sequencing, and timing; fast legs.<br /><br />13 SPI<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />not long ago?

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » January 11th, 2006, 9:22 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 24 2005, 02:06 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>4 spm (36 spm - 32 spm) is worth 12 seconds. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry. This should read _6 spm (38 spm - 32 spm) is worth 18 seconds.<br /><br />Given his age, if Watt continues to row at high drag, trading rate for pace, as the years go by, he will certainly be able to maintain the 38 spm, but to do so, his stroking power will steadily decline. 38 spm at 10 SPI is 6:29.2, about what he rowed at WIRC last year. 38 spm @ 9.7 SPI is 6:33.2. 38 spm @ 9.5 SPI is 6:36, 38 spm @ 9.2 SPI is 6:40.<br /><br />If he continues to use this technical strategy, Watt's arc of development will closely resemble people like Rod Freed and Dennis Hastings, who row at high rates but with poor stroking power (and poor technique?). <br /><br />Freed also rows at high drag (setting 7). I don't know what drag Dennis rows at.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /><br />tssssssssss this one. <br />

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