Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Eskild Ebbesen uses in the range of 117 to 121 for the drag factor, 8 meters per stroke, and 62 strokes for the 2k. </td></tr></table><br /><!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Jan 9 2006, 12:21 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Jan 9 2006, 12:21 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ugh!!!!   These numbers don't quite add up do they? </td></tr></table><br />Correction, 62 strokes per 500 meters. <br /><br />247 to 250 strokes for the 2k.<br /><br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Jan 9 2006, 11:46 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Jan 9 2006, 11:46 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, I weigh 250 pounds because I've eaten too many annoying lightweights for lunch. </td></tr></table><br />Personally, I prefer food.... and women.... but whatever floats your boat. <br />

[[old] Porkchop]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Jan 8 2006, 06:08 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Jan 8 2006, 06:08 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nav:<br /><br />PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE see:<br /><br /><a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... c=3437&hl=#' target='_blank'>http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... l=#</a><br /><br />... as well as my signature.<br /><br /> <br /><br />Warm regards ... Mark <br /> </td></tr></table><br />We're not even half-way through January and resolutions are already a thing of the past. Doncha just hate that?<br /><br /><b>Nav</b>, please do look at the thread and join us in our New Year's resolution. Life is s-o-o-o good now! I feel a zen-like tranquility . . .

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 8 2006, 05:09 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 8 2006, 05:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, when I asked for specifics on your 18SPM training program, your response was something like, " ... following the WP is good enough for you [meaning me] at this stage of your rowing ..." My take was that you had no interest in sharing specifics because someone (but certainly not me at 7:26.1) who would be competitive with you might be able to use what you've learned to better themselves. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mark--<br /><br />Sorry if I made you feel that I was hiding information or something. Not at all. I didn't recommend "rowing with breaks" for you because you can't row 60min @ 2:00 pace, so the workout is not appropriate for you. It is a _very_ advanced workout, suitable for someone like Nav Haz, but not, I think, for you. This is not intended to be insulting or whatever. It is just an important fact that has to be faced in considering what you might do to improve. <br /><br />How about this? When you can row 60min at about 1:50 pace, then you might consider "rowing with breaks," which uses 2:00 pace as a background assumption for aerobic capacity, fitness, and rowing achievement.<br /><br />When I was at your stage, I just did hour rows, one or two a day, trying to get better and better each day. I did this for two years. If I were you, obviously, I would do that, because when I _was_ at your stage (e.g., rowing about 2:05 pace for an hour), that's what I did--and it worked great. At the end of two years, I was rowing an hour at 1:50 pace. I improved 15 seconds per 500 over the hour distance.<br /><br />Perhaps you'll get this sort of improvement with the WP. I don't know. IMHO, a bunch of sprinting at your stage of development is not time well spent at all. You would benefit much more from an exclusive focus on foundational work, long bouts of free rowing (1-2 hours), with an emphasis on technique and aerobic endurance, first at UT2 and then at increasingly higher UT1 heart rates, until you can row for an hour flat against your anaerobic threshold. <br /><br />Once you can do this, you will be ready for "rowing with breaks," if you are still interested.<br /><br />Best of luck with your rowing.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Rich:<br /><br />No insult taken, and this is enlightening for me. When I can do 60' continuous under 2:00, I'll let you know to start getting ready for the questions on 18SPM workouts!<br /><br /> <br /><br />Let me ask you this, if I may ... at what age did you start rowing, and what did your improvement cycle look like with these types of rows (essentially 2 hours a day)? While not quite at this level myself, I'm putting in over 100K in an average week, UT1 (and some above with L1 and L2 workouts). Just looking for some idea of how to manage my own expectations.<br /><br />Thanks -- Mark

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me ask you this, if I may ... at what age did you start rowing, and what did your improvement cycle look like with these types of rows (essentially 2 hours a day)? While not quite at this level myself, I'm putting in over 100K in an average week, UT1 (and some above with L1 and L2 workouts). Just looking for some idea of how to manage my own expectations. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I started rowing when I was 49, just an hour a day, rowing easily. I often followed this with an hour of easy stepping, though. On vacations, when I had more time, I would do two of these sessions. <br /><br />At that time, I just rowed by the calorie counter, but now knowing something about pace, I suspect that to start off I was rowing about 2:05 pace. I remember being happy when I could row 2:00 pace. After about two years, though, I started to get quite a bit faster, discovered this web site and erging as a competitive sport, did some faster rowing, and went to some races. By that time, I could row an hour at 1:50 pace. <br /><br />I got 7th at WIRC 2002, rowing 6:28.5 in the 50s hwts, when I was 51. The next year I rowed an hour at 1:48 pace, lost 30 pounds, and broke the 50s lwt WR rowing 6:30 at WIRC 2003. The next year, I rowed 6:29 in a USIRT trial, 6:28 at BIRC, and 6:32 at EIRC. <br /><br />ranger

[[old] mpukita]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 9 2006, 07:19 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 9 2006, 07:19 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me ask you this, if I may ... at what age did you start rowing, and what did your improvement cycle look like with these types of rows (essentially 2 hours a day)? While not quite at this level myself, I'm putting in over 100K in an average week, UT1 (and some above with L1 and L2 workouts). Just looking for some idea of how to manage my own expectations. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I started rowing when I was 49, just an hour a day, rowing easily. I often followed this with an hour of easy stepping, though. On vacations, when I had more time, I would do two of these sessions. <br /><br />At that time, I just rowed by the calorie counter, but now knowing something about pace, I suspect that to start off I was rowing about 2:05 pace. I remember being happy when I could row 2:00 pace. After about two years, though, I started to get quite a bit faster, discovered this web site and erging as a competitive sport, did some faster rowing, and went to some races. By that time, I could row an hour at 1:50 pace. <br /><br />I got 7th at WIRC 2002, rowing 6:28.5 in the 50s hwts, when I was 51. The next year I rowed an hour at 1:48 pace, lost 30 pounds, and broke the 50s lwt WR rowing 6:30 at WIRC 2003. The next year, I rowed 6:29 in a USIRT trial, 6:28 at BIRC, and 6:32 at EIRC. <br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Rich:<br /><br />Thanks ...very helpful ... but for the fact that I'm 5' 7" so you have some reach on me!<br /><br />Regards -- Mark

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you want a DF that's going to take you through a 2k feeling relatively good all the way </td></tr></table><br /><br />I did my pb, 6:27.5, rowing at 200+ drag.<br /><br />It appears that all the best 50s male rowers have used high drag, at least 150 df.: Andy Ripley, Rod Freed, Graham Watt, and myself, to name a few.<br /><br />Ebbeson and Luini are not 50.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 9 2006, 03:46 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 9 2006, 03:46 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Eskild Ebbesen uses in the range of 117 to 121 for the drag factor, 8 meters per stroke, and 62 strokes for the 2k. </td></tr></table><br /><!--QuoteBegin-gw1+Jan 9 2006, 12:21 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(gw1 @ Jan 9 2006, 12:21 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ugh!!!!   These numbers don't quite add up do they? </td></tr></table><br />Correction, 62 strokes per 500 meters. <br /><br />247 to 250 strokes for the 2k. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, if 120 df. felt good for 2K rowing at 11 SPI and 41 spm, I would certainly use it!<br /><br /> <br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

Good stuff this morning.<br /><br />It appears that I can now get very solidly to 1:44 @ 20 spm (15.5 SPI). This is pretty hard technically and muscularly, but it is not that hard aerobically, even more substantial stretches. That is, rowing at this high of a power, I do indeed need to take a muscular and psychological break after not very long (a minute or two), but I am not really breathing that hard and I recover very quickly. For instance, with a little work, I think I might indeed be able to get into a long row that repeats 34 strokes (500m, 14.6 m/stroke) and then 15 seconds rest, which would be a standard "rowing with breaks" sequence. This is would be great for my goal of getting more and more continuous with 1:46 @ 20 spm (14.7 SPI).<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

In my beginning is my end...<br /><br />I thought this might be coming. Sure enough, if I put the drag all the way up to setting 10 (on my old C, 188 df.), the pace picks up even more, and without any untoward feeling of heaviness. 1:28 (rather than 1:30) comes at 36 spm, easy as pie. That's 14.3 SPI. <br /><br />When I started to row, I was _very_ comfortable rowing on setting 10 and yesterday, working with the rhythm of the 3-beat meter that I want to race in, it occurred to me why I might like this, especially for racing. At this high of a drag, rowing in a 3-beat meter with the big stroke I have now rowing with standard OTW technique, the drive slows down to the point that the ratio falls below 1-to-1, even to the point of approaching 1-to-2. The result feels a lot like paddling in the bow of a canoe in a tandem race, which I did quite a bit as a kid and a young adult. Because a paddle is so light and short, you can recover it very quickly. You can reach way forward and with your chest flat against the gunwales take a big long stroke that feels a lot like the drive of a rowing stroke. But then when you come to recover you can do it much more quickly and easily to get into the next stroke. The result is something that feels like the inverse of rowing rhythmically, a long drive and a short recovery, a recovery-to-drive ratio that approaches 1-to-2. Rowing like this, you spend the greater part of the time of the whole stroke cycle hanging on the handle against maximum resistance! Result: lots of power.<br /><br />I don't know, but this might be the erg stroke to end all erg strokes: 188 df., 1-to-2 ratio! You _certainly_ couldn't do this in a scull, but there is nothing at all preventing you from doing it on the erg (or a canoe).<br /><br />In my beginning is my end.<br /><br />Paddle that erg!<br /><br />Dip, dip, and swing.<br /><br />ranger <br /><br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Jan 9 2006, 11:46 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Jan 9 2006, 11:46 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, I weigh 250 pounds because I've eaten too many annoying lightweights for lunch. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Doesn't sound like much of a lunch, more like a light snack.

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 10 2006, 11:40 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 10 2006, 11:40 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In my beginning is my end...<br /><br />I thought this might be coming. Sure enough, if I put the drag all the way up to setting 10 (on my old C, 188 df.), the pace picks up even more, and without any untoward feeling of heaviness. 1:28 (rather than 1:30) comes at 36 spm, easy as pie. That's 14.3 SPI. <br /><br />When I started to row, I was _very_ comfortable rowing on setting 10 and yesterday, working with the rhythm of the 3-beat meter that I want to race in, it occurred to me why I might like this, especially for racing. At this high of a drag, rowing in a 3-beat meter with the big stroke I have now rowing with standard OTW technique, the drive slows down to the point that the ratio falls below 1-to-1, even to the point of approaching 1-to-2. The result feels a lot like paddling in the bow of a canoe in a tandem race, which I did quite a bit as a kid and a young adult. Because a paddle is so light and short, you can recover it very quickly. You can reach way forward and with your chest flat against the gunwales take a big long stroke that feels a lot like the drive of a rowing stroke. But then when you come to recover you can do it much more quickly and easily to get into the next stroke. The result is something that feels like the inverse of rowing rhythmically, a long drive and a short recovery, a recovery-to-drive ratio that  approaches 1-to-2. Rowing like this, you spend the greater part of the time of the whole stroke cycle hanging on the handle against maximum resistance! Result: lots of power.<br /><br />I don't know, but this might be the erg stroke to end all erg strokes: 188 df., 1-to-2 ratio! You _certainly_ couldn't do this in a scull, but there is nothing at all preventing you from doing it on the erg (or a canoe).<br /><br />In my beginning is my end.<br /><br />Paddle that erg!<br /><br />Dip, dip, and swing.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I almost can,t believe my eyes!!! You are going back to your old way of rowing. JR is getting his way. Volume volume volume, the rest is gone. Back to high drag and high rate. Away are the quickness, the rythem of the stroke. Something build in 3 years falls apart in 3 weeks. <br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I almost can,t believe my eyes!!! You are going back to your old way of rowing. </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, not at all. I am blending what I have learned with what works to get the best result. To do anything else is just plain stupid.<br /><br />Yes, given that this is erging not OTW rowing, I am going back to rushing slide at high drag, but I don't have anything like the same stroke. As a result of my two years of work on technique, my stroke is now at full slide, with precisely timed and sequenced levers, leading with the legs, with a fat middle (big pull with the back and push with the legs), a strong finish with the legs, and a strong finish with the arms.<br /><br />Rowing at the high drag with my paddling stroke (1-to-2 ratio), rushing the slide, I used to go along at about 1:38 @ 36 spm (10.4 SPI). I now go along at 1:28 (14.3 SPI)!<br /><br />1:38 is 372 watts.<br /><br />1:28 is 513 watts.<br /><br />Going back to my old way of rowing? <br /><br />Hardly.<br /><br />ranger<br /><br />P.S. I now know how to row well. I am just choosing not to in this case. Why? In order to go as fast as I can on the erg. When I am back in my 1x, I will still know how to row well.

[[old] hjs]

Going back to my old way of rowing? <br /><br />Hardly.<br /><br />ranger<br /><br />P.S. I now know how to row well. I am just choosing not to in this case. Why? In order to go as fast as I can on the erg. When I am back in my 1x, I will still know how to row well. <br /><br /><br />Well whatever works for you I suppose. But I can't help thinking : he is changing a lot at the last moment. From a very low drag is a very short time back to a very high.<br />I couldn,t do that. I started to row in ok 05 on a very low drag 85/90. And am slithly upping it a bit, now rowing at 115 but 150 of 180 would be way to high for me. I pull way to hard and can't go a very slow stroke.<br /> <br /><br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

To address an earlier question with Ranger, I did a short experiment with a cahnge in Drag. Each of the pieces was done just by feel, trying for the same feeling in each. Each was a 500m piece and these are simply a representative stroke from each. I started with the lowest Drag and proceeded to the higher.<br /><br /><img src='http://www.ps-sport.net/pictures/DragFactorTest01.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' /><br /><br />As the DF increased the pace did indeed get faster, for a given perception of effort. But since there is "no free lunch" it also required a bit higher peak force generation (more area under the curve), as well as a lower stroke ratio. What this would likely mean is that even though things start well, the piper is going to require payment eventually, and quite likely before the end of 2k. A drop of 10 seconds in a 2k is never "free".