Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 8 2006, 05:16 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 8 2006, 05:16 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->try this. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Nav--<br /><br />I suppose there might be one more caveat on this experiment. I don't at all intend this experiment as a "test," but just a recommendation for foundational training, something that you might succeed in doing and liking to do every day for long periods, for instance, an entire off season, or two, or three. If this workout does not feel like something of that sort, then your success with it is far from complete, I think. In fact, you have yet to have sucess with it at all, because, IMHO, it is only useful if it is exactly done exclusively, every day, for long periods, such as an entire off season, or two, or three. It can't be effective if you only do it once a month, much less only once.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Nav--<br /><br />Well, doing this daily for an entire off season, or whatever, just to show you are up to it and progressing, is not really necessary, I suppose. But quite an extended time is necessary, I think, just to demonstrate you have the grit to do it and progressing substantially toward your goals in the process. How about a month? That might be reasonable. Do my "rowing with breaks" at 16 SPI and 20 spm daily for a month. If you do that, I think you would demonstrate that you indeed already have a good start toward having those "fast legs" and efficient, natural stroking power and good technique that you don't seem to understand yet.<br /><br />ranger<br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it remarkable that you consider yourself to be so powerful in the stroke department. I've seen a lot of force profiles and you're about average. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ah. So how can I make it better?<br /><br />I will be happy to meet those whose force curves are better, given my age and weight. I hope I see them at the races. I will be racing in the 55-59 lwt category at 12.5 SPI and 32-34 spm.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you habituate a technique then a couple of weeks out from your first race you decide to change it, thats somewhat unusual to say the least. You have work for nearly 3 years developing muscular co-ordination of your 'peripheral' levers and now ???? </td></tr></table><br /><br />Over the last three years, I have changed almost _everything_ in my technique, George. In doing so, I have raised my stroking power 2-3 SPI. I now use the whole slide, lead with my legs and delay my back, create the most force in the middle of my stroke, finish quickly with my legs before my arms begin, and finish completely with my arms. I never did any of these things before.<br /><br />What I am doing now in order to race is just to trade rate/stroking power for pace, as everyone who has sense does, especially the best rowers. I do this, and always have, by lightening up on my heels and rowing on my toes. I haven't been rowing on my toes lately because I haven't been racing--anything. Now it is time to race.<br /><br />I have spent a lifetime developing the "peripheral levers" in my legs. For the better part of 15 years, I have been jumping rope continuously for an hour a day. I was a marathon runner for 25 years, running 60-80 miles a week for most of my adulthood. And so forth. I don't have any problem getting up on my toes and making hay!<br /><br />Lightening up on my heels draws about .75 SPI away from my stroking power. Small sacrifice, given the energy saved. I think that I might be able to get to 34-36 spm if I row on my toes, not at 13.3 SPI but at 12.5 SPI, .75 SPI less. I would be delighted with that, and if it is indeed possible, it would be much better than what I could do rowing heavily and more inefficiently on my heels. Rowing on my heels, I think I could only get to about 29-30 spm. I know, because I have done both (and now do both every day). I can now move seamlessly from one to the other (and back again) in order to modulate my stroking power and efficiency. <br /><br />Yes, in a dead sprint into the finish of a race, I will probably set my heels and pull with full power. But not until then. Until then, I will scamper along on my toes, saving energy for that final sprint.<br /><br />Make sense?<br /><br />ranger<br /><br />

[[old] ranger]

BTW, before I was a marathon runner and took up jumping rope to stay in shape, for almost a decade, I was both a half and quarter mile runner on the track and a freestyle sprinter in the pool. When I am up on my toes, I also know all too well how to get the most of it and the inevitable result. Lactic acid is a good buddy of mine, an old friend that I have known in many contexts.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->ver the last three years, I have changed almost _everything_ in my technique, George. In doing so, I have raised my stroking power 2-3 SPI. I now use the whole slide, lead with my legs and delay my back, create the most force in the middle of my stroke, finish quickly with my legs before my arms begin, and finish completely with my arms. I never did any of these things before. </td></tr></table><br /><br />George--<br /><br />In addition to this, I am now much faster with my levers than I was before. This has enormous consequences because it is this speed, especially with your legs and back, that produces that economical hang on the handle in the middle of the stroke, and if done well, right into the finish. When you hang on the handle, you aren't doing that much work. Your weight is doing the work. <br /><br />Nice!<br /><br />If you big heavyweights (George, Nav) could get quick and precise enough to lift off the seat and use your weight to generate force on every stroke, your stroking power would soar and you would go like h***! It would be impossible not to. From what I see now, though, you big folk just sit, clunk, on your butts and push and pull like mad with your legs and arms. Not very efficient! Whip those legs--then hang on the handle and fly to the finish! Much more efficient.<br /><br />"He flies through the air with the greatest of ease, the daring young man on the flying trapeze."<br /><br />A strong, efficient rowing stroke is a trapeze.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] george nz]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 9 2006, 08:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 9 2006, 08:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So you habituate a technique then a couple of weeks out from your first race you decide to change it, thats somewhat unusual to say the least. You have work for nearly 3 years developing muscular co-ordination of your 'peripheral' levers and now ???? </td></tr></table><br /><br />Over the last three years, I have changed almost _everything_ in my technique, George. In doing so, I have raised my stroking power 2-3 SPI. I now use the whole slide, lead with my legs and delay my back, create the most force in the middle of my stroke, finish quickly with my legs before my arms begin, and finish completely with my arms. I never did any of these things before.<br /><br />What I am doing now in order to race is just to trade rate/stroking power for pace, as everyone who has sense does, especially the best rowers. I do this, and always have, by lightening up on my heels and rowing on my toes. I haven't been rowing on my toes lately because I haven't been racing--anything. Now it is time to race.<br /><br />I have spent a lifetime developing the "peripheral levers" in my legs. For the better part of 15 years, I have been jumping rope continuously for an hour a day. I was a marathon runner for 25 years, running 60-80 miles a week for most of my adulthood. And so forth. I don't have any problem getting up on my toes and making hay!<br /><br />Lightening up on my heels draws about .75 SPI away from my stroking power. Small sacrifice, given the energy saved. I think that I might be able to get to 34-36 spm if I row on my toes, not at 13.3 SPI but at 12.5 SPI, .75 SPI less. I would be delighted with that, and if it is indeed possible, it would be much better than what I could do rowing heavily and more inefficiently on my heels. Rowing on my heels, I think I could only get to about 29-30 spm. I know, because I have done both (and now do both every day). I can now move seamlessly from one to the other (and back again) in order to modulate my stroking power and efficiency. <br /><br />Yes, in a dead sprint into the finish of a race, I will probably set my heels and pull with full power. But not until then. Until then, I will scamper along on my toes, saving energy for that final sprint.<br /><br />Make sense?<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No it does not <b>"make sense" </b>[/U]!!!! Ranger you are backtracking on things you have said so fast I am truly amazed even at you. Its pretty sad that you have come to this scrambling attempt to find some sustainable speed. I wish you luck and hope you do well, but so much credible comment by you in the past has been undone of late.<br /><br />George<br />

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 8 2006, 01:21 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 8 2006, 01:21 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->mwa Ok. but not at the level of your erging. At what weight? </td></tr></table><br /><br />Just what I weigh now (with just the same muscle bulk and composition and therefore upper body strength): 165 lbs.<br /><br />165 lbs. is just a good lean weight for me, whether running or rowing.<br /><br />I was a marathoner as an adult, but I was a half miler in track in high school and college. I was a sprinter in swimming (50 and 100 freestyle). I was a bowman when I did tandem racing in canoeing. None of these things are done well, or even competently, with a slight body build. <br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />As a marathon runner you were to heavy, you had to much upperbodystrenght/muscle. Why did you do this? You haven,t performed at your personal best Level.

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 9 2006, 02:01 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 9 2006, 02:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nav--<br /><br />Well, doing [my recommended "rowing with breaks"] daily for an entire off season, or whatever, just to show you are up to it and progressing, is not really necessary, I suppose. But quite an extended time is necessary, I think, just to demonstrate you have the grit to do it and progressing substantially toward your goals in the process. How about a month? That might be reasonable. Do my "rowing with breaks" at 16 SPI and 20 spm daily for a month. If you do that, I think you would demonstrate that you indeed already have a good start toward having those "fast legs" and efficient, natural stroking power and good technique that you don't seem to understand yet.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Quite apart from the question of whether rowing exclusively at 1:44 r20 for extended periods of time is the most efficient way of increasing the efficient application of my existing stroking power, such a regimen would be silly for me for other reasons.<br /><br />Low-intensity aerobic exercise burns mainly fat. As you pass the threshold at about 70% of VO2max, your body burns an increasing preponderance of carbohydrates. To some extent you can paper over the problem of glycogen depletion by ingesting carbohydrates during exercise. However all sorts of studies have shown that it takes time to replenish glycogen stored in the liver and in the muscles. Current thinking is that it takes a minimum 20-22 hours even when diet is optimal. If you don't replenish it more or less fully, you actually degrade your performance. The longer you're in deficit the more degradation you will get.<br /><br />Now I cannot row 1:44 r20 for extended periods of time at 55-70% of VO2 max. If I could I'd already be sub-6:00 for 2k. I might be able to do it at higher intensity levels while keeping below my anaerobic threshold, but if I did I'd be burning mainly carbohydrates, at a rate of at least 1370kcal/hr. 16k of 1:44 r20 would take me about 55:28, so I'd be burning at least 1266kcal every time I did one of your workouts. That's way too high a rate to be covered by replenishment during exercise and more than sufficient to argue against two-a-day sessions. I would be in glycogen deficit.<br /><br />Okay, then, what about one workout a day, drinking carbohydrate-laced drinks during the breaks in the exercise and replacing the other 1000kcal/day through diet. I suppose it might be possible, although I would need a full-time nutritionist if I tried to keep things isocaloric. <br /><br />However I prefer to do the majority of my 20 spm work at lower, preponderantly fat-burning intensities that don't overstress my body. Dropping excess fat is the single biggest thing you can do to improve your relative VO2max, and your ability to process oxygen has a much greater effect on your endurance over 2k than does your stroking power. Moreover, the closer you get to your anaerobic threshold the more you emphasize cardiovascular adaptations rather than metabolic muscle efficiency. I'd rather work at lower intensities on building capillaries and muscle-cell mitochondria.<br /><br />Maybe if/when I ever get back to single-digit body-fat percentages it might make sense to up the intensity of this part of my training. But I have a ways to go. Since I have lost roughly 40 lbs of fat in the past year while adding muscle, and have dropped 20 seconds so far off my 2k time, I think I'm doing just fine so far.

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 8 2006, 12:50 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 8 2006, 12:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bye the way although you say I am a heavyweight I have to say I am only 6.1 so just to small to really erg hard. I don,t know any short hwgt who rowed below 5.55. So 5.37 (that guy is 2,04, 18,5 cm longer then me) </td></tr></table><br /><br />Adjusted for age and weight our 2K times differ by 35 seconds. That's almostt 9 seconds per 500!<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hmm ranger. On any given event. Which person will perform best? <br />The answer is: Someone in his peak (20/35) who is righly built for the sport and well trained.<br /><br />For example: To be a good highjumper you have to be light and tall, To be a good shotputter you have to be very strong and tall, to be a good gymnist you have to be flexible, strong and short , a can make the list as long as a want.<br /><br /><br />To be a good erger. You have to be strong, and tall, 6,5/7 would be nice. If your not, your simply not made for this sport.<br /><br /><br />what does it mean to be worldrecordholder? For me that's means simply, that man or woman that achieved the best permormance in any given event. No matter what hight, weight, age etc. That's simply wkat sport is about. If we filter al differances out we would al finisch the same .<br /><br /><br />To make it short: my pb is 6.14 yours is 6.28. Why? I am more suited that you at erging a 2k. <br /><br />

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 8 2006, 08:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 8 2006, 08:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Your halfmarathon is at your 2k + 23.5 seconds. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />And your point is? Graham Benton's is at 2k + 15, and his wasn't at 20 spm.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To be a good erger. You have to be strong, and tall, 6,5/7 would be nice. If your not, your simply not made for this sport </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sports are social institutions and are defined by their official rules of play, not your arbitrary attitudes.<br /><br />Think what you like. In terms of the sport, it's irrelevant.<br /><br />As it turns out, by your own admission, you are very poorly suited to be a heavyweight. You are much too short and light. As it turns out, in body build (and almost everything else, as far as I can tell), I am a perfect lightweight. That's why I broke a world record in this sport (three times) and by quite a margin (four seconds) and will again in a few days, by an even larger margin (perhaps as much as 15 seconds) but you haven't come within 37 seconds of one.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As a marathon runner you were to heavy, you had to much upperbodystrenght/muscle. Why did you do this? You haven,t performed at your personal best Level.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sports are just hobbies. I love running, especially long distances. I like (and participate in) many other sports, too.<br /><br />Such as rowing.<br /><br />2000m of pure fun!<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dropping excess fat is the single biggest thing you can do to improve your relative VO2max </td></tr></table><br /><br />Dropping fat has nothing to do with oxygen utilization. It is just a product of how VO2max is calculated (i.e., with a weight divisor). Claiming that fat loss raises oxygen utilization is like having erg races determined by watt/kg and, losing 20 lbs. of fat, claiming that you are now a better erger because you can do more watts/kg on the erg!<br /><br /> <br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Low-intensity aerobic exercise burns mainly fat. As you pass the threshold at about 70% of VO2max, your body burns an increasing preponderance of carbohydrates. To some extent you can paper over the problem of glycogen depletion by ingesting carbohydrates during exercise. However all sorts of studies have shown that it takes time to replenish glycogen stored in the liver and in the muscles. Current thinking is that it takes a minimum 20-22 hours even when diet is optimal. If you don't replenish it more or less fully, you actually degrade your performance. The longer you're in deficit the more degradation you will get. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have been doing this daily all this year. So I am not burning carbohydrate? Interesting. I must be at less than 70% Vo2max. I follow these ergs sessions with 1-2 hours on a stepper at 300 watts. Inbetween the two sessions, I eat three eggs and a little cereal. In total, I can sometimes be working for 4 hours while doing this rowing and stepping. I suppose that sometimes I can burn up to 5000 calories.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] hjs]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 9 2006, 10:24 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 9 2006, 10:24 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->To be a good erger. You have to be strong, and tall, 6,5/7 would be nice. If your not, your simply not made for this sport </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sports are social institutions and are defined by their official rules of play, not your arbitrary attitudes.<br /><br />Think what you like. In terms of the sport, it's irrelevant.<br /><br />As it turns out, by your own admission, you are very poorly suited to be a heavyweight. You are much too short and light. As it turns out, in body build (and almost everything else, as far as I can tell), I am a perfect lightweight. That's why I broke a world record in this sport (three times) and by quite a margin (four seconds) and will again in a few days, by an even larger margin (perhaps as much as 15 seconds) but you haven't come within 37 seconds of one.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />You are a man, I am a man. The event is erging. The best in the world erg 5.40 minus. I erged 6.14 , you erged 6.28. Both nice but nothing special. We are simply not made for the sport. <br />I don,t mind and simply enjoy. <br /><br />Do you know what the wr is for small men on the high jump? <br />Do you know a large gymnast who won a olympic medal? <br />