Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->For example, when I asked for specifics on your 18SPM training program, your response was something like, " ... following the WP is good enough for you [meaning me] at this stage of your rowing ..." My take was that you had no interest in sharing specifics because someone (but certainly not me at 7:26.1) who would be competitive with you might be able to use what you've learned to better themselves. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Mark--<br /><br />Sorry if I made you feel that I was hiding information or something. Not at all. I didn't recommend "rowing with breaks" for you because you can't row 60min @ 2:00 pace, so the workout is not appropriate for you. It is a _very_ advanced workout, suitable for someone like Nav Haz, but not, I think, for you. This is not intended to be insulting or whatever. It is just an important fact that has to be faced in considering what you might do to improve. <br /><br />How about this? When you can row 60min at about 1:50 pace, then you might consider "rowing with breaks," which uses 2:00 pace as a background assumption for aerobic capacity, fitness, and rowing achievement.<br /><br />When I was at your stage, I just did hour rows, one or two a day, trying to get better and better each day. I did this for two years. If I were you, obviously, I would do that, because when I _was_ at your stage (e.g., rowing about 2:05 pace for an hour), that's what I did--and it worked great. At the end of two years, I was rowing an hour at 1:50 pace. I improved 15 seconds per 500 over the hour distance.<br /><br />Perhaps you'll get this sort of improvement with the WP. I don't know. IMHO, a bunch of sprinting at your stage of development is not time well spent at all. You would benefit much more from an exclusive focus on foundational work, long bouts of free rowing (1-2 hours), with an emphasis on technique and aerobic endurance, first at UT2 and then at increasingly higher UT1 heart rates, until you can row for an hour flat against your anaerobic threshold. <br /><br />Once you can do this, you will be ready for "rowing with breaks," if you are still interested.<br /><br />Best of luck with your rowing.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->14 spi r32 for 2k would be a 5:52. I'll settle for 13.2 r 34.<br /><br />As for "heave ho-ing," unless or until you actually see me doing this workout you have no freaking idea what my stroke these days looks like technically. None. Zip. Zlich. What on earth makes you think my legs aren't "fast"? I can row 1:18 pace r48 at 200+ DF for at least 350m if I choose to do so. Admittedly that's a short distance, but it's 15.4 spi at forty-eight strokes a minute. How much faster do they need to be? That's pretty damn quick for a 6' 6" 50 year old HW. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I am not sure that the "look" of a stroke matters that much, although I have indeed seen you row, and only a month or so ago. What matter most, I think, is how you hang on the handle and sequence the levers in your stroke, i.e., its rhythmicity. I don't know what you saw in your EIRC row, but I didn't see this. Given your size, if you had these, you would be pulling about 14 SPI, not 11.5 (or whatever).<br /><br />My mention of "fast legs" refers to what happens in the drive of your stroke, not what sort of rate you can achieve, cutting the recovery. You have the logic exactly backwards. When you put the drag up, your legs get slower, not faster; and the recovery has nothing necessary to do with the drive.<br /><br />If you want to get a stroke that is 14 SPI and you are wondering how this relates to rowing with breaks, try this. Drop the drag to 105 df. Row 1:43 @ 20 spm (16 SPI) for 1-2 hours, taking breaks whenever you want, but only so long that the row comes out to be in and around 2:00 pace. All strokes should be at 16 SPI, that is, rest is not active, but is just done with the clock ticking. If you can do this, then I'll believe that you have fast and efficient legs, entirely fast enough for your goals and intentions. You will also have to have excellent technique. You can't do this, I think, by heave-ho-ing. You need to be technically efficient. <br /><br />If you can indeed do this, well, I would keep doing it--a lot. Why? Well, at some point, I think, if you continue to work at it, you should be able to just row the 1-2 hours straight through with a UT2 heart rate. Once you can do this, you will be sitting very pretty indeed. You will be just rowing along easily at 16 SPI.<br /><br />As I mentioned, to get this final effect, a continuous UT2 row at 16 SPI, I think you will probably have to do "rowing with breaks" at over 18 SPI. Once you do that, 16 SPI, rowed continuously at low rates, will feel easy, and racing at 14 SPI will become possible.<br /><br />Good lluck!<br /><br />ranger<br />

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 8 2006, 09:09 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 8 2006, 09:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Perhaps you'll get this sort of improvement with the WP. I don't know. IMHO, a bunch of sprinting at your stage of development is not time well spent at all. You would benefit much more from an exclusive focus on foundational work, long bouts of free rowing (1-2 hours), with an emphasis on technique and aerobic endurance, first at UT2 and then at increasingly higher UT1 heart rates, until you can row for an hour flat against your anaerobic threshold. <br /><br />Once you can do this, you will be ready for "rowing with breaks," if you are still interested. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Ranger, I think it is somewhat simplistic to associate the WP with a "bunch of sprinting", since the Level 1 and 2, together, represent only about 10% of training volume. Level 4 at 60% and level 3 at 30%, are both foundational work.<br /><br />Are you implying that even 8x500m and 4x2k, done once a week is counterproductive?

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 8 2006, 03:41 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 8 2006, 03:41 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Jan 8 2006, 06:20 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Jan 8 2006, 06:20 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->64 x 250m 1' rest this morning: </td></tr></table><br />Nice ongoing session.<br /><br />Your average 51.2 seconds at 1:42.4 pace was at 2k + 7.5.<br /><br />I have done this for a half marathon, i.e. 82.8 minutes with NO rests.<br /><br />I guess you are are saying your session is foundational rowing. There are two ways to develop it which are (1) keep bringing the pace down to your 2k pace, perhaps reducing the number and/or breaking it up into sets and (2) shorten the recoveries to 15s for each minute, i.e. 60x 1:00 with 15s rests. You should still eventually be able to do the same pace and even faster, for example 2k + 4 to 5s or less, i.e. for you this would be < 1:40 pace. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />John, look again. You may have rowed a HM at 2k + 7 but you didn't do it at 20 spm. You have a bizarre notion of foundational rowing if you think that the goal of low-rate work is to row at your 2k pace. <br /><br />No one on the planet has ever reported rowing a HM at my 2k + 4. Exactly two people -- Graham Benton and Dwayne Adams -- have ever done it at my 2k + 5. And they didn't do it at 20 spm either. <br /><br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->First I'd like to see even a single complete 2k in 7 min @ SR=20 (1:45) out of you.<br /><br />Then you could say how easy that was, and go on to doing it for an hour. (no breaks) </td></tr></table><br /><br />These will be the _results_ of my training next year, not my prerequisite to it, although I might indeed be able to do a 2Kr20 @ 1:45 right now. If a convenient time comes up to try one, I'll give it a go. I am now reaching 1:46 @ 20 spm pretty frequently in my long "rowing with breaks." It is coming very naturally and easily with just natural stroking, when I get my technique right.<br /><br />On the other hand, I don't think that this isolated, Hywell sort of heave-ho-ing racing is the issue. It will be much more significant when I succeed in rowing continuously 60-120'r20 @ 1:48. To do that, 1:48 must be relaxed, efficient, and comfortable, a UT2 row, not a race, 7 minutes long, technique be damned, rowing your heart out and ending up exhausted. I don't find that productive foundational training at all. That is just sharpening.<br /><br />Since I sharpen infrequently but am indeed sharpening now, doing a 7:00 2K at 20 spm (perhaps lots of them) might indeed be appropriate. But this sort of row has little to do with the methods and effects of "rowing with breaks." It is just another "test." IMHO, testing is not very productive foundational training.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are you implying that even 8x500m and 4x2k, done once a week is counterproductive? </td></tr></table><br /><br />Indeed!<br /><br />To each his own, though. I am just expressing my opinions about training and training according to those opinions. You certainly don't have to! Follow the WP if you want, as it appears you are. On the whole, I think Mike C. has his priorities in exactly the right places. On the whole, the WP is an excellent plan, especially if you want to be "race ready" at all times. My only objections to the plan for me personally are these: (1) I would only do something like what the WP suggests for about six weeks before racing, (2) I would also do lots of cross-training (skipping, stepping, running, biking, sit ups, etc.) as a supplement to rowing, with the total amounting to about twiice the daily work the WP suggests, and (3) I would work even harder and more exclusively on developing stroking power than the WP suggests (i.e., my "rowing with breaks."<br /><br />Everyone has the complete freedom to suffer the consequences of their own training decisions. Each method of training is just a choice and should not be arbitrarily judged by others but evaluated by the results in performance achieved/generated.<br /><br />It's your choice. You choose. We are just sharing information here.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 8 2006, 11:30 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 8 2006, 11:30 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 8 2006, 01:52 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 8 2006, 01:52 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I always jump rope in my bare feet[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />On what surface? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have two 4' x 6' throw rugs that I have been carrying around with me for skipping for the last decade or so. The surface is soft and warm. If I have a choice, I use these rugs instead of, say, a concrete floor (in the garage). Of course, a carpeted floor will also do nicely, if your ceilings are high so that your rope can circle freely. I don't skip on carpets any more, though, because I can skip so hard and so long that the sweat I produce ruins the carpet in short shrift. Not good. So I use the little throw rugs just for the purpose of skipping. They work great. _Very_ comfortable on the feet and legs.<br /><br />ranger <br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->try this. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Nav--<br /><br />I suppose there might be one more caveat on this experiment. I don't at all intend this experiment as a "test," but just a recommendation for foundational training, something that you might succeed in doing and liking to do every day for long periods, for instance, an entire off season, or two, or three. If this workout does not feel like something of that sort, then your success with it is far from complete, I think. In fact, you have yet to have sucess with it at all, because, IMHO, it is only useful if it is exactly done exclusively, every day, for long periods, such as an entire off season, or two, or three. It can't be effective if you only do it once a month, much less only once.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] TPMcT]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 8 2006, 06:37 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 8 2006, 06:37 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This switch from rowing on my heels to rowing on my toes seems to be my own special version of the transition from training to racing and from strong stroking to trading rate for pace. In 2003, I also trained all off season strapless and at low drag (100 df.), low rates, and high stroking power, with a technique that included an early and firm heel plant. Then when it came around to racing, I upped the drag, exactly to what I have upped it to now, 155 df., and left behind the slow, heavy, and costly heel plant in order to row quickly, lightly, and more efficiently on my toes. The only difference is that in 2003, I was only rowing at about 13 SPI in my low spm training, rather than 14.7, as I am now. <br /><br />I have noticed for some time that putting my heels down gives me about 2 seconds/500 more power per stroke, or about 3/4 of  an SPI. This is just what I found today when I started to row on my toes again. When I row off my heels, I do 1:30 @ 36 spm (13.3 SPI). When I row on my toes, this now drops to 1:32 (12.5 SPI), a loss of just this 3/4 of an SPI. Given these paces, though, if the energy cost of rowing off my heels makes it so that I can only row 28-30 spm for 2K when I plant my heels while the efficiency of rowing off my toes allows me to get all the way to 36 spm when I avoid this heel plant and row up on my toes, the decision about which technique to use is a no-brainer. 13.3 SPI @ 29 spm is 1:37 pace, my 2K pb two years ago after only one year of working on technique and stroking power. But 12.5 SPI at 36 spm, as I mentioned, is 1:32.  <br /><br />The other advantage of rowing on your toes, I think, an advantage that I have sorely missed over the past three years of training, during which I have been rowing on my heels, is that, without a firm heel plant you can modulate the strength of a stroke much more easily, lightening up just a tad when you need to or pulling quite a bit harder when you must. This is _very_ useful when you are racing and any slight movement away from flat splits can spell disaster for your ability to be economical with your energy. When I row with a firm heel plant, though, I find this delicate modulation of pace much harder to accomplish. Pushing with your heels, you necessarily engage the big muscles in your legs and the resulting energy cost, regardless of how lightly you push, is still pretty severe, so you might as well just push as hard as you can and have done.<br /><br />I am delighted to realize these things this early in sharpening (six weeks to go until WIRC). Undoubtedly, rowing back up on my toes will make this work both more exciting (because considerably faster( and more enjoyable (because enormously easier).<br /><br />One final note. I have also noticed, especially early on in my work at slow rates and high stroking power using a firm heel plant, that low spm rowing of this sort, especially at low drag, is pretty violent stuff. Rowing at high rates with a firm heel plant is even more violennt! In fact, as everyone recommends, when you row with a strong stroke and a firm heel plant and therefore engage at full power the big muscles in your legs at high rates and with high intensity over any sort of extended time period you need next to forever (a week?) to recover. This is another major advantage of rowing on your toes, especially for sharpening. Without a firm heel plant, just using your toes and the peripheral levers in your legs, this high power, high rate work is not destructive at all. You recover quickly from it, so much so that you can do it every day. This lets someone rowing on their toes get in much more sharpening during a sharpening period than is possible for someone who rows on their heels--and with little cost, just 2 seconds, and much gain, an elevation of rate as much as 7 spm, which is worth over five seconds per 500. Net gain: about 15 seconds.<br /><br />Interestingly, back in 2003, I won BIRC by 10 seconds and EIRC by 12. This is just about in the range of time that I save, I think, by rowing on my toes vs. planting my heels. Rowing along way out ahead of the pack, I look feakily accomplished or talented or well trained as a rower. Maybe that's not it at all. Maybe I am no fitter or more gifted as a rower than anyone else. Maybe I am just rowing on my toes, trading rate for pace, and in doing so, reaping the advantages in efficiency--and everyone else  isn't!<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />It's nice to peripheral levers and extension pressups making a comeback. Can hunting the savannah be far behind?<br /><br />To stop being a smart aleck for a moment, just what do you mean by "peripheral levers"? You used the phrase "just using your toes and the peripheral levers in your legs." Am I missing an essential part of the anatomy? I had thought that legs and arms <i>were</i> the peripheral levers.<br /><br />And one more question. If I were going to dunk a basketball . . . all right, all right, NavHaz . . . if I were going to attempt to dunk a basketball, my toes would be the last part of me to leave the ground. But If I were going to deadlift or power-clean a barbell, I would certainly keep my heels flat. Would you be up on your toes to lift a barbell?<br /><br />Tim McTighe

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Jan 8 2006, 01:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Jan 8 2006, 01:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have a bizarre notion of foundational rowing if you think that the goal of low-rate work is to row at your 2k pace.  </td></tr></table><br />Your session was at 2k + 7.5, which is 7.5 seconds slower than 2k pace.<br /><br />The issue is that you took a full 1:00 rest between each 51.2 seconds of rowing. How is that foundational? If it was intended to be race pace training, then keep the same rests and keep doing them faster, i.e. eventually at race pace and faster.<br /><br />If your intention is truly as foundational rowing, then keep reducing the rests, until you can row the same pace and faster for 60x 1:00 repetitions and no more than 15s of rest in between them. You should be able to do these at 2k + 4 to 5 seconds.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one on the planet has ever reported rowing a HM at my 2k + 4.  </td></tr></table><br />You've done a half marathon at 2k + 4? That's a 1:38.9 pace. I'm impressed!<br /><br />Why are you wasting your time with 1:00 rests when you could do the whole thing with no rests?

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But If I were going to deadlift or power-clean a barbell, I would certainly keep my heels flat. </td></tr></table><br /><br />My response is this: If I am going to lift a relatively light weight, nothing like a heavy barbell, whose weight is generated, not by gravity, by the speed of my levers working against it, and do this by sequencing my levers in a complex rhythmized way from full compression to full extension up to 40 times a minute or 6-7 minutes, I would (and do) indeed recommend not keeping my heels flat--and for exactly the reasons I (at length) explained.<br /><br />Try this. Jump rope on your heels. Then jump rope on your toes. What do you find? Try double time jumping, testing this contrast. Try jumping on one leg and then the other. And so forth. <br /><br /> <br /><br />Or try this: running on your heels without pushing off the balls of your feet at all. Don't roll from heel to toe, just stay on your heels.<br /><br /> <br /><br />I rowed 6:28 as lightweight when I was going on 53 years old by rowing on my toes. At the time, I didn't even know how to row (in other ways, e.g., how to sequence my levers, use the full slide, and rhythmize my stroke correctly).<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->40 times a minute or 6-7 minutes </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry. "or" here should be "for."<br /><br />ranger

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Jan 8 2006, 02:00 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Jan 8 2006, 02:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I have two 4' x 6' throw rugs that I have been carrying around with me for skipping for the last decade or so. The surface is soft and warm. If I have a choice, I use these rugs instead of, say, a concrete floor (in the garage). [right] </td></tr></table><br />Are these rubber backed, non slip types of throw rugs, or no backing on them?<br /><br />Can you use them on concrete floors or is that not enough padding?<br /><br />

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Jan 8 2006, 05:30 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Jan 8 2006, 05:30 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Jan 8 2006, 01:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Jan 8 2006, 01:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You have a bizarre notion of foundational rowing if you think that the goal of low-rate work is to row at your 2k pace.  </td></tr></table><br />Your session was at 2k + 7.5, which is 7.5 seconds slower than 2k pace.<br /><br />The issue is that you took a full 1:00 rest between each 51.2 seconds of rowing. How is that foundational? If it was intended to be race pace training, then keep the same rests and keep doing them faster, i.e. eventually at race pace and faster.<br /><br />If your intention is truly as foundational rowing, then keep reducing the rests, until you can row the same pace and faster for 60x 1:00 repetitions and no more than 15s of rest in between them. You should be able to do these at 2k + 4 to 5 seconds.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one on the planet has ever reported rowing a HM at my 2k + 4.  </td></tr></table><br />You've done a half marathon at 2k + 4? That's a 1:38.9 pace. I'm impressed!<br /><br />Why are you wasting your time with 1:00 rests when you could do the whole thing with no rests? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />It's foundational because -- contrary to your preconceived notions -- work doesn't have to be continuous to be foundational. Neither is foundational work necessarily about pace. Technique and power and intensity also come into play. I know you have a hard time accepting this, but LOW RATING WORK IS NOT THE SAME AS HIGH SPM TRAINING. You go right on believing that you should do everything at 38 spm, if you want to, and at altitude since you think it easier. I will go right on doing what I'm doing.<br /><br />As for your frightfully silly and willfully abtruse misreading of what I said about 2k + 4 pace, I shall not stoop to a response. <br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Jan 8 2006, 01:37 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Jan 8 2006, 01:37 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No one on the planet has ever reported rowing a HM at my 2k + 4.[right] </td></tr></table><br />According to your signature file....<br /><br />50 MH 6' 6" 248<br />PBs: MP 1:10 100 14.98 500 1:21.7 1k 3:02.7 mile 4:59.5 2k 6:19.7 <br />5k 16:44.0 6k 20.40.4 10k 35.14.3 HM 1:23:14.3 FM TBA 30' 8597 60' 16071m<br /><br />your 5k is at 2k + 5.5<br /><br />your 60 minute PB is at 2k + 17 !!!!<br /><br />You must have been joking about a HM at 2k + 4. <br />