Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 21 2005, 08:05 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 21 2005, 08:05 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Keep trying, Paul!  <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Why, I can't manage to go as slow as you for even twice your distance, what is there left to try?<br /><br />No trying here, just doing... <br /><br />Cheers, little man.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 21 2005, 06:59 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 21 2005, 06:59 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->this was not a time trial, just and easy "hop on the Erg and go"<br /><br />... This could have been extended easily to 5k[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Okay then your 4k, <b>if</b> you had held it for a 5k, would have given you a PATT percentage of 82.8 ... instead of 80.3. <br /><br />My 5k for this year is only 88.8 percent. You are getting closer Paul! <br /><br />Keep trying!<br /><br />I know you don't want to challenge me to a 5k based on PATT percentages though, say any time within the next 4 weeks which would be ending January 18th. <br /><br />You would probably be chicken to do that, being afraid of races and time trials and all even though you are so much "faster" right Paul. <br /><br />And you'd probably get tired even trying it! <br /><br />So I won't bother to even suggest such a thing. <br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As to the novice question I am not sure why you keep talking about being a novice in regard to OTW as this is an Indoor rowing forum and that is all this is about. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Whether you pay attention to it or not, the rowing stroke is the basis of all training for rowing. Yes, I did some fast times, but with another stroke, one that is not suited to rowing OTW. Over the last two years, I have learned a standard OTW stroke and am now training it into racing shape. I am a novice at rowing both on the water and with this standard OTW stroke, whether on the water or on the erg. <br /><br />I will indeed report AT, TR, and AN sessions as I do them. As far as higher rate rowing goes, lately, I have just been doing technical sessions trying to get used to rowing at higher rates with my new stroke. It is important to me to maintain good technique as I raise the rate, so I am trying to be careful about these things. <br /><br />Again, my situation at the moment is not a normal one. I have fully developed power, aerobic capacity, anaerobic capacity, endurance, leverage, strength, quickness etc., and I am trying to slip a new technical foundation under this superstructure. This is a trick!<br /><br />A good parallel, I suppose, would be a world record holding high jumper who tried switch from doing a western roll to doing the Fosbury (sp?) flop. The jumping ability is there, but the task of getting over the bar changes pretty radically.<br /><br />I am just trying to be patient as I make this switch.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You made the comment to George NZ that you were now finished with these long rows at low rates and high SPI and were moving onto AT work a higher rates and faster paces. You also said that you would be 'reporting' these sessions, but I cant see any?<br /><br />Given that you are only 4 weeks till your first race and not that long given that you have to get used to higher rates for your major goal at Boston. When will you be reporting the details of these sessions.<br /><br />I note in your comments to PaulS that you also dont quantify your training the way most people do, so I was wondering how you will assess your training progress as you close in on your goal. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I don't quantify the rowing at high stroking power and low rates (with breaks) that I have been doing. This is foundational rowing. I suppose I don't really quantify other sorts of foundational work that I do either. Until 8-10 weeks before a big race, I usually do long, long workouts, involving both the erg and cross-training, with all of the work being foundational. <br /><br />When I am in a position to do so, I sharpen for races like everyone else: distance trials, short intervals, long intervals, etc.; so I don't think there is anything of unusual interest there. When I sharpen, I do indeed row set distances that I quantify rigorously, like everyone else.<br /><br />Most of improvement in rowing comes from foundational work. Sharpening has about the same effect on everyone. For me, it brings very predictably brings down my 2K score about 10 seconds. It is a necessary stage in training but not a very important one, I think. The quantity and quality of the foundational training you do the other 45 weeks of the year determines what you can achieve in your sharpening. The sharpening itself makes almost no independent contribution to your improvement, if there is any.<br /><br />If you use sharpening all year round in order to try to improve, after a very short while (a year or so), you no longer improve. You just stay the same, wear yourself out, and (usually, after being discouraged long enough) in frustration quit the sport entirely, or at least quit having high goals for your racing, especially goals that involve steady improvement.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] Alan Maddocks]

Yes, this is how world class, full-time, professional rowers do.<br /><br />Loads and loads of distance work, gradually increasing intensity for 10 months of the year, followed by a few weeks of sharpening prior to the main competitive event.<br /><br />Standard stuff really.<br /><br />It's most of the rest of the erging community that are out of step, not Ranger.

[[old] ranger]

Quite a find this morning. I inched the drag up to 122 df. from 105 df. Nice! Much steadier with a little more weight on the chain. My technique is now established enough to withstand the stress. No problem. <br /><br />Training at low drag 105 df. has made my legs very fast and my timing very precise. I now feel the central peak of the stroke exactly and am driving the wheel with my legs off my heels at a low center of gravity rather than yanking the chain with my back at a high center of gravity. <br /><br />This result is _completely_ different from last year. When I inched up the drag and tried to prepare to race at BIRC 2005 my new technique fell apart. I couldn't take the stress. No such thing this year. <br /><br />I am not sure, but I might be able to inch the drag up another couple of notches in a month or so. I don't want to move too quickly with this, though. I will row at 122 df. for a few weeks before I try this.<br /><br />At 122 df., the additional weight on the chain adds a couple of seconds to each split at the same leg speed. 1:52 @ 18 spm becomes 1:50 @ 18 spm, no extra effort needed. I was even hitting 1:50 @ 17 spm (a clean 15 SPI!). Race pace (1:36) comes very smoothly and easily at 28 spm.<br /><br />Over this sharpening period, I will try to do two sessions a day, if I can weather it, one at 1:50 @ 18 spm (14.7 SPI) over as long a distance as I can muster (with breaks) and one at 1:36 @ 28 spm (12.5 SPI) in the Zatopek format (500s with a 500m paddle inbetween). Yes, both are interval sessions. I will do the faster workout in the morning when I am fresh and the slower workout in the afternoon when I am not as fresh.<br /><br />The low spm rowing will continue my work on technique and get me entirely used to rowing at 122 df., after rowing so long at 105 df. The Zatopeks will get me used to rowing at race rate and pace. <br /><br />When I performing pretty well on these workouts, I will lengthen the short intervals in various formats, moving toward 4 x 2K, and push the low spm rowing into as continuous an effort as possible.<br /><br />Everything is going nicely. 8 weeks or so until WIRC. Sharpening is under way.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->at BIRC 2005 </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sorry. This should be BIRC 2004.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Zatopeks will get me used to rowing at race rate and pace. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I don't know Lydiard that well, but I suppose that the race pace Zatopeks that I like to do are something like Lydiard's "striding" that he had his runners do as they made their transition into racing from their foundational work. This is not anaerobic work yet, just neuromuscular adjustment to faster pacing. Once that adjustment is thoroughly made, long and short AN intervals can be done with full efficiency: final race preparation.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] NavigationHazard]

I personally have no truck with numerology, or with attempts to find the mark of the Beast here there and everywhere.<br /><br />However I can't help noting that Ranger's "DF 122 feels good" post is number 666 in this thread....

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-Alan Maddocks+Dec 22 2005, 05:24 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Alan Maddocks @ Dec 22 2005, 05:24 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, this is how world class, full-time, professional rowers do.<br /><br />Loads and loads of distance work, gradually increasing intensity for 10 months of the year, followed by a few weeks of sharpening prior to the main competitive event.<br /><br />Standard stuff really.<br /><br />It's most of the rest of the erging community that are out of step, not Ranger. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />Cheeers, Alan.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

Don't know about this for sure, but I think the higher drag (given my quick legs, used to a lower drag) sustains suspension on the handle for a larger portion of my stroke. At 122 df., I am "really" standing up on the footplate! At 105 df., my legs are not quite fast enough to do this as thoroughly and dramatically. <br /><br />On the other hand, I don't think I am suspended _all_ of the way to the finish yet even at 122 df. Another couple of notches of drag might do it, though. If I can keep my technique together with my present leg speed at, say, 135 df., my work on this stroke might (finally!) be done, and I can indeed be again "off to the races."<br /><br />Delighted with this.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

According to my recent experience (and the advice of people like Paul Smith!), it does indeed seem to be right that when beginning ergers search around for what they feel to be the "best" drag, the one that gets the highest numbers with the least effort, they just fit the drag to their slow legs rather than training their legs to be fast so that they get good suspension on the handle in the center of the drive and then adjusting the drag to the potential, full body power in their stroke as a whole, at it is executed with maximally fast legs. <br /><br />Too bad. <br /><br />This loss in potential is then usually magnified and intensified by the training methods adopted by these rowers, especially if their focus is on competing. Normally, these folks also race their workouts from day to day, rigorously quantifying their "performances," trying maximize their "numbers" whenever possible with sharpening routines, rather than working on the foundational endurance work that will earn themselves real improvement, regardless of the numbers achieved. <br /><br />Too bad, too. <br /><br />If you row at minimal drag, you train yourself to have faster legs, but in the meantime your "numbers" drop dramatically, especially in the beginning, but even over the whole course of your training (until your have trained yourself sufficiently to have consistently faster legs and consistently better timing and can put the drag back up without destroying your technique).<br /><br />No big deal--and good result.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] PaulS]

John,<br /><br />So your 5k did make the 75th percentile, congratulations! You're improving.<br /><br />You're mathematical manipulations are humorous, you know that PATT is meaningless, yet you continue to use it to boost your self image, is that a Life Coaching technique?<br /><br />Anyway, back in 2003 your hero Rod Freed did a 5k that would put yours at 67% of his, and you were in the same category at the time. Looks like you are hedging even on your PATT. Amazing stuff.<br /><br />Serioulsy John, it's hindering your progress by fooling yourself. Even you have said that a 1:48 is faster than a 1:50 no matter what, so you at least have shown a small grip on reality. Come on into the reality pool, the water is fine.

[[old] slo_boat]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 21 2005, 06:39 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 21 2005, 06:39 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 21 2005, 03:27 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 21 2005, 03:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I may have said that I do not want to risk injury and that racing is a greater risk for that.  I have done time trials that I am quite satisfied with, but they did require excessive recovery time (several weeks) that I do not wish to repeat.  That was about two years ago and there is no reason to repeat the performances again.[right] </td></tr></table><br />Wow, two weeks to recover from a sprint.<br /><br />That must be a new world record! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />JR,<br /><br />While you are busy being a jerk, perhaps you would care to comment on recovery times from other activities and injuries. What is the world record for recovery for each of the following?<br /><br />A pulled muscle<br />A torn muscle<br />Open groin hernia repair<br />Knee arthroscopy<br />Shoulder arthroscopy<br />Sinus infections<br />Bacterial respiratory ailments<br />Viral respiratory ailments<br />Torn ACL<br />Overtraining syndrome<br /><br />Feel free to add any other ailments. (I note that you have proclaimed yourself an expert on asthma.)<br /><br />It is a shame that you don't put as much effort into trying to be a decent person as you do into being a critic and into petty bickering. You probably would not have to put any extra effort into being a decent. All you would have to do is to stop putting so much effort into being an ass.<br /><br />I'd be willing to wager that most people read your posts for the same reason that they slow down and look at car accidents on the side of the highway. That is a shame because somewhere you must have something positive to contribute. If nothing else, your hard work could be an example for many people.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 22 2005, 04:56 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 22 2005, 04:56 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, I don't think I am suspended _all_ of the way to the finish yet even at 122 df. Another couple of notches of drag might do it, though. If I can keep my technique together with my present leg speed at, say, 135 df., my work on this stroke might (finally!) be done, and I can indeed be again "off to the races."<br /><br />Delighted with this.<br /><br />ranger[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Soon you'll be back up to 200 df and 36-38 spm!