Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] hjs]

<br />So you agree, contrary to what Ranger said, that erging is not unique. Good! <br /><br /><br />O yes, I sure do <br /><br />On the other hand, I also agree with you, as oppose to what Ranger says, that to optimize the performance of gifted people, no matter the endurance sport, they must follow a training that is tailored to each event. That is, an athlete that wants to optimize his/her performance at a 6 min event will not follow the exact same training plan as someone else, equally gifted, wanting to optimize his/her marathon.<br /><br />Different tasks, ask for differant approaches. There is no doubt for me <br /><br /><br />Isn't life wonderful when we are all in perfect agreement! <br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />Francois<br />[

[[old] FrancoisA]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 16 2005, 03:51 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 16 2005, 03:51 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->very gifted people need a specific training for each event </td></tr></table><br /><br />Not in rowing. They can be, and should be, done simultaneously.<br /><br />Caviston races his quality 2Ks when his long level 3 rows are at their maximum distance, 32K, not their minimum distance, 12K. <br /><br />For rowing, this training philsophy, I think, is exactly right.<br /><br />I train much the same way. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />I think that Mike, and he can correct me if I am wrong, has said explicitly that the WP is designed to optimize the 2k performance. That implicitly implies that it would be different if the purpose were to optimize the marathon performance.<br /><br />Doing a longer workout at L3 intensity, once a week, is something most endurance athletes do.<br /><br />And no, you are not training the same way as Mike Caviston! Take a look at these <a href='http://concept2.ipbhost.com/index.php?s ... entry35451' target='_blank'>differences</a>.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 16 2005, 01:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 16 2005, 01:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, JR is always arguing that the ability to have a good UT2 pace (i.e., rowing at 20-22 spm) depends crucially on your stroke length, in the sense of your height: leg length, etc[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have not ever said anything about any UT or UX or QF3 pace or anything like that.<br /><br />To clarify, a rower with longer arms and torso per height will have a mechanically longer stroke length than one of average dimensions. This depends on one's height, but even more so on the length of arms and the torso.<br /><br />For example, you are 2 or 3 inches taller than me but my inseam is longer than yours. Thus your torso is much longer than mine, and your ratio of torso to legs is also much greater. This gives you a greater mechanical advantage for rowing.<br /><br />The result of this is you can have a longer stroke length at lower ratings, while keeping a higher ratio of drive:stroke than I can, because you are getting a greater percentage of drive time (length) per unit of time. The lower the stroke rate, the more this is the case.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Dec 16 2005, 02:01 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 16 2005, 02:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Said didn't race the 800 and the 10 k in the same season.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Said Aouita did indeed have a great range and held the WR for 5000 meters at 12:58 as well as running the 1500 meters in 3:29. I don't recall if he had the record in that too. Perhaps he did.<br /><br />The world records for those events now are 3:26.0 and 12:36. He would still be competitive at the 1500 but not the 5000.<br /><br />His 10000 meter time was somewhere around 27:29.<br /><br />The record for 10000 meters is now 26:17.<br /><br />This, as a 1500/miler, he could run a very good 10000 meters, but was not capable of approaching the WR in that event.<br /><br />Let's change the word "modern" to "current", to bring the standards up to date.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Dec 16 2005, 04:43 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 16 2005, 04:43 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I offered first Nurmi, then when John declared that the 1920s/30s weren't sufficiently modern, Aouita.  It's true that he has never held the 10k WR in his lifetime, but it's pretty hard to argue that he hasn't "excell[ed] at all events from 1500m to 10000m."  </td></tr></table><br /><br />If you will reread my previous messages, you will see that I did say it is possible for a 2k rower, i.e. 1500/mile runner to do very well across distances, but not for a 2k/miler to hold <b>world records</b> in both the mile and the marathon, nor the mile and the 10000 meters. You had to go back to 1923 to find one. <br /><br />Said Aouita's fastest 800 meters was a full 3 seconds from the WR in that event. You can not say he was a challenge to the WR in the 800 meters. His range was limited from the 1500 to 5000 meters as being of world record status.<br /><br />That is still an excellent range.<br /><br />But with current standards Aouita would be left in the dust at even the 5k.<br /><br />Given your points, tell me why Aouita's fastest 10000 meters is more than a full lap behind the current fastest 10000 meter runners.

[[old] NavigationHazard]

(sigh)<br /><br />To refresh your memory as to what you actually wrote, as opposed to what you think you might have written, it was:<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 15 2005, 02:26 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 15 2005, 02:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-FrancoisA+Dec 15 2005, 11:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Dec 15 2005, 11:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Even in running, a weight bearing activity par excellence, you will find people excelling at all events from 1500m to 10000m. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Name one runner in the modern era who has held World Records for both in their lifetime. <br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Paula Radcliff, for instance, is a British champion at the 3000m and 5000m, and she holds the WR for the marathon2:15:25).[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Name one World Record or World Championships or Olympic medal that has been won by Paula Radcliffe for 3000 through 10000 meters. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You said nothing whatsoever about holding records in both simultaneously. If you intended to say "Name one runner in the modern era who simultaneously has held World Records for both in their [sic] lifetime" you should have written that sentence. If you intended to say "Name one runner who simultaneously holds the standing world records for both," as you now contend, you should have written that sentence. <br /><br />The larger point, which you seem unable to grasp, is that Francois wrote of runners "excelling at all events from 1500m to 10000m." Evidently you have now taken it into your head to equate "excelling at some point in their careers" with "simultaneously holding the current world records." You are entitled to your personal understanding of excellence. Rest assured, though, that mine is somewhat more expansive. I admit the greatness of near-record performances, and I also suggest that consistent medalling against all comers bespeaks excellence whether or not the times happen to beat standing records. <br /><br />I also admit the greatness of past athletes. So what if Paavo Nurmi's best time in a mile was slower than Alan Webb's as a high schooler. Try running in long spikes and heavy shoes on cinder tracks sometime, and see what training and racing handicaps the old farts had. Before you ask, I have been there and I know what I'm talking about.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 16 2005, 10:48 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 16 2005, 10:48 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 16 2005, 01:18 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 16 2005, 01:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW, JR is always arguing that the ability to have a good UT2 pace (i.e., rowing at 20-22 spm) depends crucially on your stroke length, in the sense of your height: leg length, etc[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />I have not ever said anything about any UT or UX or QF3 pace or anything like that.<br /><br />To clarify, a rower with longer arms and torso per height will have a mechanically longer stroke length than one of average dimensions. This depends on one's height, but even more so on the length of arms and the torso.<br /><br />For example, you are 2 or 3 inches taller than me but my inseam is longer than yours. Thus your torso is much longer than mine, and your ratio of torso to legs is also much greater. This gives you a greater mechanical advantage for rowing.<br /><br />The result of this is you can have a longer stroke length at lower ratings, while keeping a higher ratio of drive:stroke than I can, because you are getting a greater percentage of drive time (length) per unit of time. The lower the stroke rate, the more this is the case. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />You're stating to sound like a cat with all those "per"'s in your post.<br /><br />Long Legs and Arms, with a short torso is no particular disadvantage in rowing, there are very successful internationals with dimensions like that, but if you want to use it as an excuse for your own failings that's fine, just don't imply that it would be so with anyone else.<br /><br />It takes Strength and Power to be able to produce fast paces at low ratings and high ratios, having a long stroke is also not a bad thing, and is even somewhat dependent on overall height, but not nearly as much as one would guess. I.e. being 3 inches taller doesn't mean your stroke will be 3 inches longer. It would be nice if it did, it just doesn't.<br />

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that Mike, and he can correct me if I am wrong, has said explicitly that the WP is designed to optimize the 2k performance. That implicitly implies that it would be different if the purpose were to optimize the marathon performance. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Why?<br /><br />Only if you assume that each event has its own specific training, but this is your take on the issue under discussion. <br /><br />You assume the consequent. You give no argument for your position.<br /><br />If you assume the opposite, _my_ take on he issue under discussion, i.e., that the best at the 2K will also be the best at the marathon, then training for the 2K is also training for the marathon.<br /><br />I have given other evidence and argument for my position, though. You (folks) haven't.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

The argument about running vs. rowing is fine but really off the point for this thread. O.K. There might be a couple of runners in the history of the sport who have been the best at both the mile and the marathon. It is certainly not the norm, though.<br /><br />In rowing, it is the norm.<br /><br />That's the crucial difference. <br /><br />In rowing, it helps your 2K to do marathon training and it helps your marathon to do 2K training.<br /><br />They are the same thing!<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So will you concede that Gebrselaisse is an exception? </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sure, I'll grant the exception. But drumming up exceptions is not the point, and the difficulty of doing this proves the point.<br /><br />In rowing, Gebrselaisse is the norm!<br /><br />In rowing, those who are best at the 2K are also best at the marathon.<br /><br />2K training is also marathon training, and vice versa.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

For those who don't believe this, you need to answer this question:<br /><br />In rowing, why is the best training for the 2K not also the best training for the marathon?<br /><br />For the 2K, the first thing you do in a good training plan is to build marathon endurance with a strong stroke, one that is suited to the limits of your ability to hold that stroke for 6-7 minutes at 30-40 spm. During other phases of training, you cycle through this stage constantly to keep it active.<br /><br />Then you build up your aerobic capacity to the maximum, so that you can hold that stroke for as long as possible at a whole range of moderate stroke rates: 22-26 spm. Through other stages of training, you also cycle through this stage constantly to keep it active.<br /><br />Then you do intervals that maximize your capacity to even surpass that anaerobic threshold, pushing the rate to 28-30 spm. Through other stanges of training, you also cycle through this stage constantly to keep it active.<br /><br />Then you do short intervals that skirts to the edges of your top end speed and anaerobic tolerance, being careful not to overdo this stage, while you keep the other stages active.<br /><br />What is left to do? What kind of training would fashion a better marathoner, if this is not it?<br /><br />ranger

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 16 2005, 05:36 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 16 2005, 05:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Freed does a great 5K but just a so-so 2K. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Faster than yours at 1:50 pace, with breaks.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-NavigationHazard+Dec 16 2005, 04:43 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 16 2005, 04:43 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Viren was capable of running the last mile of a 5k in around 4:01.  Given that, there's absolutely no doubt he could have gone 3:50 or so in an open event -- had he bothered to.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Viren competed often at the 1500 meters.<br /><br />His fastest time was around 3:43, i.e. 4:01 or so for a mile.<br /><br />Viren's fastest 5000 meters was 13:13.<br /><br />The WR is now 37 seconds faster, i.e. 12 minutes and 36 seconds.

[[old] John Rupp]

Viren's fastest marathon was 2:13.<br /><br />The WR for the marathon is now 2:04:54 by Paul Tergat.

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 16 2005, 10:52 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 16 2005, 10:52 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-hjs+Dec 16 2005, 02:01 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 16 2005, 02:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Said didn't race the 800 and the 10 k in the same season.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />Said Aouita did indeed have a great range and held the WR for 5000 meters at 12:58 as well as running the 1500 meters in 3:29. I don't recall if he had the record in that too. Perhaps he did.<br /><br />The world records for those events now are 3:26.0 and 12:36. He would still be competitive at the 1500 but not the 5000.<br /><br />His 10000 meter time was somewhere around 27:29.<br /><br />The record for 10000 meters is now 26:17.<br /><br />Thus, as a 1500/miler, he could run a very good 10000 meters, but was not capable of approaching the WR in that event.<br /><br />Let's change the word "modern" to "current", to bring the standards up to date. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />