Ranger - News To Shock

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 16th, 2005, 5:21 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>14 SPI (e.g., 18 @ 1:52) </td></tr></table><br /><br />i.e., 1:52 @ 18 spm (14 SPI)<br /><br />ranger

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 16th, 2005, 5:43 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Dec 15 2005, 10:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 15 2005, 09:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>John is right. Those days don't count. The level of performance was much lower than nowedays <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Be careful before agreeing with John; most of his posts are pure nonsense! <br /><br />Cheers! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br /> <br /><br />yes i know. But even he is't wrong all the time.

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 16th, 2005, 5:46 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Dec 15 2005, 10:57 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 15 2005, 09:40 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 15 2005, 09:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 15 2005, 11:36 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>9-time Olympic gold medalist Paavo Nurmi. Unless you don't consider the 1920s/30s the modern era. In 1923 held the record for the mile, the 5k and the 10k simultaneously.[right] </td></tr></table><br /><br />1923 is not the modern era.<br /><br />Nurmi's fastest mile was not any better than 4:10, a good high school time these days.<br /><br />Try again. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />John is right. Those days don't count. The level of performance was much lower than nowedays <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />In 1923 competitve running was in its infancy, much as competitve erging is today. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />although true, in those days they didn,t how to train wel so performences weren't close to what the could have don If they trained they way we now do.<br />

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 16th, 2005, 6:01 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Dec 15 2005, 11:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 15 2005, 02:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Dec 15 2005, 11:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Even in running, a weight bearing activity par excellence, you will find people excelling at all events from 1500m to 10000m. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Name one runner in the modern era who has held World Records for both in their lifetime. <br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Since you dismiss Nurmi so easily, how about Said Aouita? Bronze medallist in 1988 in the Seoul Olympics in the 800m, world recordholder at one time or another in the 1500m, 2000m, 3000m, and 5000m, and a PB at 10k in 1986 that was then the 7th fastest ever (as well as only 3.5 secs off Henry Rono's WR at the time).<br /><br />Oh wait, he didn't hold the WR or win an Olympic medal in the 10k, so we can't say he truly excelled across the competitive distances. I've heard Aouita's so ashamed of this total complete abject failure he has to walk around Morocco with a paper bag on his head. <br /><br />Never mind. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />To stay with the 7 min versus 2 hours plus. 800 meters / 10 k is 2 minutes/27 minutes, Thats not the same. <br /><br />And one onther very big differance. Said didn't race the 800 and the 10 k in the same season. He first did mostly 800/1500 meters stuff and later in his carreer he wend to the longer stuff. This is something complete different.<br />But you are true if you say that some very talented atletes can exel in differrent disciplins. Look at Haile Gebresalssie or bekele. But being marathonchamp and a 6 minutes event champ at te he same time is never been don in modern sports.<br />Although

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 16th, 2005, 6:04 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Dec 15 2005, 11:11 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 15 2005, 09:55 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paula is a fine example off being a formidable marathon atleet but a not so good on shorter distances. her 10 k is still worldclass but her finish isn't good enough. She has't fast twitch muscle enough. On a 7 minutes race (2 k time for rowing) she is not worldclass. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />Why would that reasoning not apply to rowing? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />??? I think paula is a living proof of what I think. Very very good on the 42 k but not able to compeet at that level on the 3 k. Although certainly not bad offcause.

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 16th, 2005, 6:10 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 15 2005, 11:24 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Even in running, a weight bearing activity par excellence, you will find people excelling at all events from 1500m to 10000m. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Sure. But that wasn't the basis of the discussion. Both the mile and the 10K are middle distance events.<br /><br />The discussion was about the mile and the marathon.<br /><br />Rowing is indeed odd in that, if they want to, the best milers will be the best marathoners.<br /><br />_Very_ odd, and food for thought.<br /><br /><br /><br />BTW, IMHO, there is no parallel, really, between the running stride and the power and complexity of a rowing stroke. The physics and dynamics of the two are entirely different. Therefore, the basic modes of training for rowing vs. running are _entirely_ different. <br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Ranger.<br /><br />For rowing only the 2 is a olympic disipline, so I think that the much longer distances (42k)are not as good developed. There is not much to gain so people just don't do it that much. So in my eyes there is no proof for your statement.

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » December 16th, 2005, 8:43 am

The specific exchange I've been commenting on was:<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 15 2005, 02:26 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Dec 15 2005, 11:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Even in running, a weight bearing activity par excellence, you will find people excelling at all events from 1500m to 10000m. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Name one runner in the modern era who has held World Records for both in their lifetime. <br /> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />By way of refuting Rupp, I offered first Nurmi, then when John declared that the 1920s/30s weren't sufficiently modern, Aouita. It's true that he has never held the 10k WR in his lifetime, but it's pretty hard to argue that he hasn't "excell[ed] at all events from 1500m to 10000m." In fact, as I pointed out, he's excelled at all events from 800m to 10k.<br /><br />Your response included this: <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 16 2005, 05:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>And one onther very big differance. Said didn't race the 800 and the 10 k in the same season. He first did mostly 800/1500 meters stuff and later in his carreer he wend to the longer stuff. This is something complete different.[right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />In fact, six of Aouita's seven fastest 800s ever were run <i>after</i> he had set his 10k PB:<br /><br />800m<br /><br />0266] 1:43.86 Saïd Aouita MAR 02.11.59 1 Köln 21.08.1988<br />0390] 1:44.06 Saïd Aouita MAR 02.11.59 3 Seoul 26.09.1988<br />0625] 1:44.36 Saïd Aouita MAR 02.11.59 1 Bruxelles 19.08.1988<br />0641] 1:44.38 Saïd Aouita MAR 02.11.59 1 Lausanne 30.06.1983<br />0896] 1:44.64 Saïd Aouita MAR 02.11.59 1 Verona 27.07.1988<br />1038] 1:44.74 Saïd Aouita MAR 02.11.59 1 Caorle 09.07.1987<br />1113] 1:44.79 Saïd Aouita MAR 02.11.59 2s2 Seoul 25.09.1988<br /><br />10k<br /><br />217] 27:26.11 Saïd Aouita MAR 02.11.59 1 Oslo 05.07.1986<br /><br />The second fastest of those 800s was the bronze medal in the event in the Seoul Olympics -- two years after his 10k PB. Although he does not appear to have raced a world-class 800 and a 10k competitively in the same calendar year, I think there's absolutely no doubt he could have at any time from 1986 through 1988. That he didn't probably says more about the economics of modern track and field than it does about his ability to do so.<br /><br />As for Gebrselassie, you say<br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 16 2005, 05:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>But you are true if you say that some very talented atletes can exel in differrent disciplins. Look at Haile Gebresalssie or bekele. But being marathonchamp and a 6 minutes event champ at te he same time is never been don in modern sports.[right] <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />In fact, Gebrselassie has run the second-fastest indoor 1500m ever:<br /><br />2] 3:31.76 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Stuttgart 01.02.1998<br /><br />He's also produced four more of the top twenty times ever run in the event.<br /><br />In the marathon, this fall he became the 17th fastest ever:<br /><br />17] 2:06:20 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Amsterdam 16.10.2005<br /><br />I concede that he's moving up in distance over the years. However Ranger's original contention in all of this is that no runners, as opposed to rowers, have been world class across a range of distances up through the marathon. I happen to think that's simply not true. Gebrselassie certainly has. For that matter so too has Lasse Viren -- doubling in the 5k and 10k plus a 5th in the marathon <i>in the same Olympics</i>. If I remember correctly, Viren was capable of running the last mile of a 5k in around 4:01. Given that, there's absolutely no doubt he could have gone 3:50 or so in an open event -- had he bothered to.

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 16th, 2005, 9:36 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Lasse Viren </td></tr></table><br /><br />Viren was a miler? <br /><br />5K is not 2K. <br /><br />Freed does a great 5K but just a so-so 2K.<br /><br />10K/HM is not the marathon. <br /><br />Freed could go 1:45 for a HM, but doesn't rank any marathon times. Why? It is indeed possible to run your heart rate at 170-180 bpm for a 75 minutes (I can do it, too), but it is another thing entirely running your heart rate at that level for 150 minutes.<br /><br />Freed rowed like a runner. He never learned how to row well (technically).<br /><br />Rowing is all rhythm and relaxation (with high stroking power). It isn't just an exercise in aerobics.<br /><br />ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 16th, 2005, 9:38 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>However Ranger's original contention in all of this is that no runners, as opposed to rowers, have been world class across a range of distances up through the marathon. </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, that wasn't my claim. My claim was about the mile and the marathon.<br /><br />ranger

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 16th, 2005, 9:40 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>For rowing only the 2 is a olympic disipline, so I think that the much longer distances (42k)are not as good developed. There is not much to gain so people just don't do it that much. So in my eyes there is no proof for your statement. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Perhaps.<br /><br />But what proof there is, supports my claim.<br /><br />There is no evidence whatsoever for your claim.<br /><br />ranger

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » December 16th, 2005, 9:52 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 16 2005, 08:38 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>However Ranger's original contention in all of this is that no runners, as opposed to rowers, have been world class across a range of distances up through the marathon. </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, that wasn't my claim. My claim was about the mile and the marathon.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I sit corrected.<br /><br />So will you concede that Gebrselaisse is an exception? Or will you quibble that 1500m is not a mile, that indoors is not the same as outdoors, that he hasn't (yet?) run both a 1500 and a marathon competitively in the same season, that he hasn't (quite) set world records or won Olympics in both, and that precisely 7835 winged angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[old] FrancoisA · Post by **[old] FrancoisA** » December 16th, 2005, 10:14 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 16 2005, 01:38 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>However Ranger's original contention in all of this is that no runners, as opposed to rowers, have been world class across a range of distances up through the marathon. </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, that wasn't my claim. My claim was about the mile and the marathon.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br />The mile in running is a much shorter event than the 2k on the erg. So the comparison is unfair for runners to start with.<br /><br />The 2k on the erg is about 70% aerobic, while the marathon is probably above 90%. It would seem that someone, with higher % of slow twitching muscles, who has focused his/her training for the marathon would perform better than someone else with a lower % of slow twitching muscles, who has optimized his/her training for the 2k. And the converse would be true. Although both could perform very well at the other distances.

[old] hjs · Post by **[old] hjs** » December 16th, 2005, 10:15 am

<br /><br />In fact, six of Aouita's seven fastest 800s ever were run <i>after</i> he had set his 10k PB:<br /><br /><br />As for Gebrselassie, you say<br /><br /><br />In fact, Gebrselassie has run the second-fastest indoor 1500m ever:<br /><br />2] 3:31.76 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Stuttgart 01.02.1998<br /><br />He's also produced four more of the top twenty times ever run in the event.<br /><br />In the marathon, this fall he became the 17th fastest ever:<br /><br />17] 2:06:20 Haile Gebrselassie ETH 18.04.73 1 Amsterdam 16.10.2005<br /><br /><br />Ok facts are facts <br /> So indeed it is possible to compeet at 4 minutes and at 2 hour at worldclass level. But on mayor events you wil never see a top class athleet compeet at events which aren,t closly related. Haile did the 5 and 10 k. not a 1500 of marathon at the same time. the same goes for said. Also very gifted people need a specific training for each event.<br />

[old] ranger · Post by **[old] ranger** » December 16th, 2005, 11:51 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>very gifted people need a specific training for each event </td></tr></table><br /><br />Not in rowing. They can be, and should be, done simultaneously.<br /><br />Caviston races his quality 2Ks when his long level 3 rows are at their maximum distance, 32K, not their minimum distance, 12K. <br /><br />For rowing, this training philsophy, I think, is exactly right.<br /><br />I train much the same way. <br /><br />As I remember, Dwayne rowed his 2:27 marathon right at the same time that he rowed his 5:47 2K. <br /><br />And so forth.<br /><br />At the limits of performance, the 2K in rowing presupposes all of the other distances. The best at the 2K will also be the best in a marathon: simultaneously and normatively.<br /><br />ranger

[old] FrancoisA · Post by **[old] FrancoisA** » December 16th, 2005, 11:58 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(hjs @ Dec 16 2005, 02:15 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ok facts are facts <br /> So indeed it is possible to compeet at 4 minutes and at 2 hour at worldclass level. But on mayor events you wil never see a top class athleet compeet at events which aren,t closly related. Haile did the 5 and 10 k. not a 1500 of marathon at the same time. the same goes for said. Also very gifted people need a specific training for each event. <br /> </td></tr></table><br />So you agree, contrary to what Ranger said, that erging is not unique. Good! <br /><br />On the other hand, I also agree with you, as oppose to what Ranger says, that to optimize the performance of gifted people, no matter the endurance sport, they must follow a training that is tailored to each event. That is, an athlete that wants to optimize his/her performance at a 6 min event will not follow the exact same training plan as someone else, equally gifted, wanting to optimize his/her marathon.<br /><br />Isn't life wonderful when we are all in perfect agreement! <br /><br />Cheers!<br /><br />Francois

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