Ranger - News To Shock

[[old] ranger]

No personal attack intended. Just disagreement.<br /><br />When it comes to training, I think that age and personal experience can make a _ton_ of difference in certain matters. <br /><br />For instance, those who have never done and never do long distance work (marathon and ultramarathon length, etc.) will probably find it very difficult, if they suddenly try. Bodies (muscles, nerves, etc.) have a _very_ long memory. Some training effects are permanent; some are _very_ slow to change, either for the better or for the worse. <br /><br />ranger<br /><br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 9 2005, 09:22 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 9 2005, 09:22 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Secondly, when you first broke the 50-59lwt WR, you considered that a "envelope pushing" performance, or at least you certainly talked about it as if it were. What did I tell you at the time? (hint: "it will be broken again soon") Apparently I was right. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Yes, my 50-54 WR _was_ broken. Repeatedly. By me! And yes, then what I was able to do was bested by Graham, although just as he turned 50, while I was almost 54.<br /><br />My 6:28 at just a tad under 53 years old is still pretty good. Perhaps Graham will be able to do better two years from now. We'll see.<br /><br />I never had a clean shot at the lwt 50-54 WR. I didn't start rowing until I was 50, and even then, I was carrying 30 pounds of extra fat and rowing as a heavyweight. I didn't learn how to prepare well to row as a lightweight until I was 52 and didn't row on the water until then, either. And I really haven't developed proper technique until just now, as I am turning 55, and even so I am still working on this.<br /><br />It takes five years or so to learn the fundamentals of a sport. I think I am just approaching that now. <br /><br />The 55-59 lwt WR will be the first WR that I have had a clear shot at at the proper age, as Graham had a clear shot at my 50-54 lwt WR when he had just turned 50. Then that standard will give Graham something to shoot at that is somewhat more legitimate, when he turns 55.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Face it, you've never raced faster than when you were rowing crappy and had 30lbs of useless fat on you. Maybe "johnny bipolar" is right, MASS MATTERS, PERIOD. <br /><br />Of course I've disagreed with that from the beginning, but you are the one that has to provide the evidence at this point. I remember you being pretty well chuffed with your Hwt performance and disagreeing strongly (even showing extreme levels of disrespect at times) that you even were "rowing crappy" because you got a particular result which you presented as being the bees knees. You have been a lot of work, but I'm still optimistic that it will have all been worthwhile in the end. <br /><br />What was that about "Ignoring fundamentals"? You put it so well on one occassion.

[[old] ranger]

I have spent an entire lifetime running marathon distances. So now at 55 years of age, in my training for rowing, doing long bouts of rowing can be an enormous asset for me. I love it, do it easily, benefit substantially, and suffer no damage from it. If I can also learn to do it with a quality stroke (14 SPI, etc.), I think this asset will grow--significantly.<br /><br />Just a hunch.<br /><br />I am not sure that a 14-year-old with no personal background in prolonged hard exercise is in a parallel situation. <br /><br />Point of evidence.<br /><br />Whoever you are. Step at 300 watts for 2 hours. See how it goes.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

Better, do the 300 watts for 2 hours on the stepper _after_ you row hard for a couple of hours.<br /><br />See how it goes.<br /><br />Or try 40 x 500m (500m paddle inbetween) at 2K + 2.<br /><br />Or...<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Face it, you've never raced faster than when you were rowing crappy and had 30lbs of useless fat on you. </td></tr></table><br /><br />It wasn't really rowing. When I row like that in my 1x, I fall right out. I can't take a stroke.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

Ged Musto, who weighs about 130 lbs, rowed a 2K in 6:23 (or thereabouts) at over 60 spm and maximal drag.<br /><br />Nice!<br /><br />But it's not rowing.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Of course I've disagreed with that from the beginning, but you are the one that has to provide the evidence at this point. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Happy to. Glad to oblige.<br /><br />Stay tuned to this station for the next 30 years.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You have been a lot of work, but I'm still optimistic that it will have all been worthwhile in the end. </td></tr></table><br /><br /> <br /><br />I certainly owe my improved technique to your advice (although I think I deserve some of the credit, too, for doing the work to improve it!).<br /><br />We seem to disagree about training more generally, though. On these matters, I have pretty much been doing my own thing, and will continue to.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->you even were "rowing crappy" because you got a particular result which you presented as being the bees knees </td></tr></table><br /><br />It _was_ the bees knees--still is, and still could be.<br /><br />I am just interested in other things now.<br /><br />I am more interested in rowing than in erging.<br /><br />My other stroke is _very_ effective in generating watts on the erg. There's undeniable proof of this. Ergs don't lie. They are truth machines. <br /><br />On the other hand, to this point, there is no evidence, really, that for me at least, rowing properly is more effective over the course of a 2K.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 9 2005, 10:12 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 9 2005, 10:12 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You have been a lot of work, but I'm still optimistic that it will have all been worthwhile in the end. </td></tr></table><br /><br /> <br /><br />I certainly owe my improved technique to your advice (although I think I deserve some of the credit, too, for doing the work to improve it!).<br /><br />We seem to disagree about training more generally, though. On these matters, I have pretty much been doing my own thing, and will continue to.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'd have it no other way... You indeed "Do the Work!" (my part is easy) as do all my athletes, which is why <b>all </b>credit I would talk about, is theirs. <br /><br />As for the second point, You've never really been "one of my athletes", much more like a challenging "hobby". <br /><br />We do what we can, with what we've got.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 9 2005, 10:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 9 2005, 10:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, to this point, there is no evidence, really, that for me at least, rowing properly is more effective over the course of a 2K.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So the fact that Water Rowers own the vast majority of all Erg WR's, and don't sacrifice much of the technique that works for them on the water (though there is some sacrifice most of the time), is not <b>"evidence"</b> in favor of proper technical training. I'm certainly glad you are into literature and not law. <br /><br />That said, there are some things that can be done on the Erg that are advantageous that related to water rowing in that we can be capitalized on much better if the water technique is sound. Otherwise, the machinations become the habit and influence the maximum potential from being a crutch in training also.<br /><br />Train Hard, Race Easy.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->30' SR=20 for maximum distance is a fine "controlled" test. I've never said or even implied otherwise. You really do need to keep up on your facts when trying to score a point. (or go into politics where lying continuously is apparently an acceptable way to challenge credibility).<br /><br />"Gaming" SPI is commonly done by lowering the SR to inflate the SPI.<br /><br />SR PACE SPI<br />10 2:00 20.255<br />20 2:00 10.127<br />30 2:00 6.752<br /><br />24 1:30 20.005<br />47 1:30 10.215<br />72 1:30 6.668<br /><br />So you want to say that 2:00 @ SR=10 is in any way similar to a 1:30 @ 24?<br />They are nearly the same SPI, but I have a feeling that one could be sustained for quite a bit longer than the other.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I suppose you could put it this way, if you are interested in standard low spm tests. My marathon training at 18 spm and 1:52 is just my backhanded way, focussing on endurance and habituation, rather than other things, of preparing for a 30'r20 test @ 1:48.<br /><br />I am not sure I understand what is "gaming" about the pace of a 1:52 marathon by a 55-year-old lwt, though. As I mentioned, it would be a world record by about 7 minutes, or about 4 seconds per 500, and a pb for me by three minutes or so, or two seconds per 500. That I am trying to do it at 18 spm makes the rowing directly relevant to the 2K, too. Each drive is full, precisely timed, and quick/suspended/powerful (14 SPI), as you might want in a quality 2K.<br /><br />I will also do my Zatopek farleks this way now, e.g., 500s at 1:38 @ 28 spm or so, instead of at 38 spm.<br /><br />ranger

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 9 2005, 01:35 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 9 2005, 01:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 9 2005, 10:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 9 2005, 10:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, to this point, there is no evidence, really, that for me at least, rowing properly is more effective over the course of a 2K.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So the fact that Water Rowers own the vast majority of all Erg WR's, and don't sacrifice much of the technique that works for them on the water (though there is some sacrifice most of the time), is not <b>"evidence"</b> in favor of proper technical training. I'm certainly glad you are into literature and not law. <br /><br />That said, there are some things that can be done on the Erg that are advantageous that related to water rowing in that we can be capitalized on much better if the water technique is sound. Otherwise, the machinations become the habit and influence the maximum potential from being a crutch in training also.<br /><br />Train Hard, Race Easy. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, that other top ergers have used standard on water technique to achieve what they have does not imply that I will have the same experience.<br /><br />I think my other stroke maximized my natural strengths, which had been develped in many other sports.<br /><br />I have no background in rowing and therefore no muscular adaptation and perhaps not even any innate talent, muscularly, etc., for rowing. <br /><br />My other stroke was a running, swimming, canoeing stroke. <br /><br />I have a _lifetime_ of experience doing these things, and finding a sport where I could do these three things, all at once, to maximal effect, was a perfect fit!<br /><br />ranger <br />

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 9 2005, 01:01 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 9 2005, 01:01 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 9 2005, 01:35 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 9 2005, 01:35 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-ranger+Dec 9 2005, 10:19 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ranger @ Dec 9 2005, 10:19 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->On the other hand, to this point, there is no evidence, really, that for me at least, rowing properly is more effective over the course of a 2K.<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So the fact that Water Rowers own the vast majority of all Erg WR's, and don't sacrifice much of the technique that works for them on the water (though there is some sacrifice most of the time), is not <b>"evidence"</b> in favor of proper technical training. I'm certainly glad you are into literature and not law. <br /><br />That said, there are some things that can be done on the Erg that are advantageous that related to water rowing in that we can be capitalized on much better if the water technique is sound. Otherwise, the machinations become the habit and influence the maximum potential from being a crutch in training also.<br /><br />Train Hard, Race Easy. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No, that other top ergers have used standard on water technique to achieve what they have does not imply that I will have the same experience.<br /><br />I think my other stroke maximized my natural strengths, which had been develped in many other sports.<br /><br />I have no background in rowing and therefore no muscular adaptation and perhaps not even any innate talent, muscularly, etc., for rowing. <br /><br />My other stroke was a running, swimming, canoeing stroke. <br /><br />I have a _lifetime_ of experience doing these things, and finding a sport where I could do these three things, all at once, to maximal effect, was a perfect fit!<br /><br />ranger <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Let's not confuse evidence with experience, I know there are a lot of the same letters, and they even sound similar, but the meanings are very different.<br /><br />And frankly, your other stroke was more like a monkey humping a football (which may be okay for Erging, as long as you've got a lot of overall capacity to put into it. It is fun to watch, regardless.), I don't see the running, swimming, canoeing traits at all. <br /><br />If the last 4 years hasn't given you "any background", I'm not sure you will ever consider youself to have any, and it seems a lame excuse at best.

[[old] ranger]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin--> it seems a lame excuse at best </td></tr></table><br /><br />Excuse? Excuse for what? <br /><br />At best, I am using it as an _explanation_ of how I could row 6:27.5, at 52, with a lightweight frame, with the technique I had, first time out in a race.<br /><br />I sure hope standard technique is better for me, but I have no solid evidence yet.<br /><br />ranger