Three Months to 2k PB (3/1/15)

[rhr]

Nice 500m there Damien - well done.

I'm glad to see the predictive powers of workouts / CTC continue to hold!

The difficulties with rowing are many. In particular increases in your power output are not linear, rowing is measured in Watts and is a cubed function of pace. For those of us who come from a running / cycling background we have to adjust to this concept. If I'm running a race and take my pace from 4:00 / km to 3:48 / km that's a 5% increase. If I'm rowing a 2k and take my split down from 1:40 / 500m to 1:37.5 / 500m (2.5% per 500m increase in pace) the change in Watts is 7.88% (377.6 from 350). The equivalent of taking my running pace to 3:41 / km, a material difference to 3:48 / km for me when I'm pushing myself right on the edge. Add to this an explosive start where you take your pace / rate well below the average target, something I would never do in a running race, and you can find yourself in material discomfort very quickly. The final nail in the coffin is the fact that rowing is a multi muscle exercise, there's no opportunity to "free wheel", fatigue can appear at any time and in any place. Depending on your stroke and DF, physiology etc it could be the lungs that go first or the legs, arms etc. In cycling and running the early warning signals are there, you can moderate your effort and get back on track, you would very rarely just stop in a TT, in rowing it's like the frog in a pot of water getting to the boil, it's often too late by the time you realize there's a major problem. The absolute bloody final nail in the coffin is that we often TT on the C2 on our own, in cycling / running we would usually do these TT's with / against other people. Personally I do better when I compete against humans as opposed to a monitor sitting in my garage alone.

Bottom line - it's a complex equation with many moving parts. In order to get a handle on your abilities and limits you need to test them and get familiar with the moving parts and more importantly the pain. It doesn't have to be TT's - it can be in hard training or the monthly CTC or a TT. I bet if I asked you your threshold levels for cycling you could detail them to the heart beat or pace very accurately. You need to get to that same place with rowing, that takes practice. I like Henry's idea of 95% efforts, they're only a few seconds off PB levels (the beauty of Watts / pace relationship in reverse) but you get to do hard work and boost your confidence. Essentially Edward's sub max 2k rows or you could build in progressive stages doing rate capped 2k TT's, something like R24 / R26 / R28 / then finally R30 or free rate.

[hjs]

So, from a strictly mental standpoint I like the 1300m; I also like sub-max 2k's. I like to have a number that I call my "everyday 2k". A time I'm 100% confident I can pull at any given time. Last week I decided to go for 7:05 to 7:10 (current PR is 6:59). I decided on a pace and a plan and pulled a 7:06, and it was nowhere near a PR effort. This type of effort gives me the confidence that I can go to an event and even on a bad day at least pull a number with-in a few seconds of my best. I'm pretty convinced that it's the mental stress that is debilitating when doing PR's too close to a race. I may get some push-back from Henry, Rodney and the others (which I welcome, I respect everyone's opinion here). But my experience with bike racing leads me to believe that the physical recovery for a 2k isn't as demanding as the psychological stressors.

Edward, depends also a bit, the more aerobicly you are, the better suited we are for racing often. The more we use our anaerobic systems, the tougher on the body.
Also sports differ, I can cyle or swim hard and recover rapidly. I can not run (if I still could) or erg very hard and recover quick. I did however once raced twice in on 2 k. Sat and sun, with a 600 drive inbetween. Pulled on both days exactly the same time. 0.1 difference. But don,t think I could do that for weeks in a row.

Also, hard just below max efforts are fine. For me the last few % make a big difference. Hard effort, 5 minutes I am fine. 100% full blown, after 5 min I start thinking can I get up.

Re cycling, is seldom maximal, only TT done 100% are, and even there the not specialist don,t go maximal. Really no comparising to erging.

[Edward4492]

Great insights! There's a huge difference between road racing and TT's. Road racing and criteriums are a series of short expolsive efforts with opportunitys to rest and "sit in" the pack and get a breath. TT's are similar to the effort on the erg, but as mentioned there is usually some time to adjust if the wheels are coming off. I've never done it, but 'm guessing track cycling where they do events like the pursuit that last 4 - 4 1/2 minutes might be more consistent with a 2k on the erg. I know I got burned out on TT's. We do a series in New Jersey (USA) that has 12 - 15 events, one each week; ranging from 9k to 40k and I always had that same nervous sense of dread that I get when I schedule an erg PR. I still tend to think (at least for me) that the stress was much more mental than physical. Where I live the "erg season" really only lasts about two months and I can get about six events in; mentally not too difficult to stay focused for that period of time

And the observations about racing at a venue....I would much rather do a race than a PR attempt at home by myself. All of my recent PR's have been done at the gym, if I can I round up one of the gym rats to go head to head with. I've had my best times in public or at an event.

And....you guys are absolutely correct about the effort required to go fast on the erg and how close we push it to the edge. It's why we always stress the absolute necessity of having a detailed plan and sticking to it. Experienced ergers are adjusting their pace down to the 1/10. It's amazing how "backing off from 1:44.3 to 1"44.8 (for example) makes a difference. I always feel like once I get past the first 300m it's l a horse race between holding my pace and running out of gas, it feels like I'm on life support all the way to the end and I'm never quite sure I'm gonna make until I hit 200m to go.

This is why I love the forums....the really cutting edge information isn't in the books, it's coming from the guys out there who are training heavy and experimenting with all of the little details and seeing what works and what doesn't.

(Great job Bob, grabbing a coupla WR's in one shot!)

[Hillclimber]

edward, i raced with atlantic bicycle club in the mid-late 80s when i lived in monmouth co.
damien

[Hillclimber]

4x 1500 workout 12/29:
1500 1:44.9 r31 rest 5:00 HR UT1
1500 1:44.9 r31 rest 5:00 HR AT
1500 1:44.9 r31 rest 5:00 HR AT
1500 1:44.0 r31 rest 5:00 HR AT up to lower TR (
- held the 1:44.9 until 250m to go then sprinted, seeing lots of 1:40s. good to know there's something in the tank after 6k of hard work.

Feeling stronger and stronger with a few of these 1500 sets under my belt. hope to have a go at a 5000m SB in the next few weeks.
damien

[Edward4492]

Damien,

Small world, I race with Pro Pedals out of Hammonton NJ. Did the Tour of Colts Neck several times; I believe that was one of Atlantic's races. Are you still in New Jersey?

[rhr]

4x 1500 workout 12/29:
1500 1:44.9 r31 rest 5:00 HR UT1
1500 1:44.9 r31 rest 5:00 HR AT
1500 1:44.9 r31 rest 5:00 HR AT
1500 1:44.0 r31 rest 5:00 HR AT up to lower TR (
- held the 1:44.9 until 250m to go then sprinted, seeing lots of 1:40s. good to know there's something in the tank after 6k of hard work.

Feeling stronger and stronger with a few of these 1500 sets under my belt. hope to have a go at a 5000m SB in the next few weeks.
damien

Nice work Damien. Did the 5x1500m a couple of days ago in 1:44.9 at R24 / 25. Up to you but I would really recommend the 5th interval. Four doesn't give you the full benefit, the real pain is in the 5th after a hard 4th. Personally I see a big difference between the two alternatives. The 5th will take you right up into TR territory where the hurt box resides.

[G-dub]

RHR, what are you pacing those 5 x 1500's relative to 2K race pace? Or what should they be paced at?

[dnf0929]

RHR, what are you pacing those 5 x 1500's relative to 2K race pace? Or what should they be paced at?

The pacing for these is usually pretty close to 5k PB pace.

[rhr]

Pete Plan says 5x1500 on R'5 is 5k PB pace.

IMO I think it's closer to 5k PB minus 0.5 - 1s although it depends on your relative strengths. For me, I would like to see 1:44.0 - 1:44.5 for the workout to be confident of a 17:30 / 5k.

In theory:
Relative to your 2k Watts (power):
173% for 10 seconds
153% for 1 minute
85% for 5k
76% for 10k

LWT rowers, with less peak power and strong aerobic ability have tighter spreads between their 2k and 5k pacing - as my focus this season is on 1k and 2k and given my specific training, 5k is 2k + 6 seconds or around 82% / 83%. I don't do long UT 2 rows, UT1 is my "slow" row and 45 mins is my max (done as intervals of 10-15 mins) but with limited breaks in between keeping my HR capped at UT1 / AT border (155 bpm / 80% of HRR). Otherwise it's all AT, TR or AN.

If you do lots of aerobic work then your power "curve" may look different. So it's hard to give a concrete "one size fits all" relationship.

[hjs]

RHR, what are you pacing those 5 x 1500's relative to 2K race pace? Or what should they be paced at?

The pacing for these is usually pretty close to 5k PB pace.

Depends a bit, I would say 1 2 seconds below 5 k pace.

[Hillclimber]

Damien,

Small world, I race with Pro Pedals out of Hammonton NJ. Did the Tour of Colts Neck several times; I believe that was one of Atlantic's races. Are you still in New Jersey?

edward,
i moved back to ct in 1990 and rode with a few different teams up to 2004. did not do much of anything until erging in 2013. feels great to have some form again, at least while working out. but it is tough to realize one's previous fitness level cannot be magically recalled in a few months of training, funny how time erases memories of brutal uphill repeats to get ready for the road race climbs in new england, such as killington.
enjoying the training again though, and plan to dust off the klein quantum pro (circa 1999) for a lot of riding this year. see how she does vs the 15-pound carbon-everything rigs out there these days.
Do you still race? the few years i erged in the winter, i felt it gave me an incredible head start in spring training rides. i'm sure you will see the same benefit, especially if you're a crit monster.
damien

[Edward4492]

Damien,

I didn't notice your address change until after I posted. As an interesting observation as to the efficacy of erging, last season I was off the bike (100%) from October until early March. I erged pretty heavily at 60 to 80k a week, five comps including CRASH B's where I got a bronze in 55-59 LWT (sorry, can't resist bragging a little!). Did my last erg race on a Saturday afternoon first weekend in March and the next morning did a 45+ circuit race and hung with the pack. Quite surprised with the result which I attribute to the fitness from the erg, my low bodyweight ( had been 180 a year ago, now maintaining sub 165) and years of pack racing skills. I know how to sit in, get to the front before the corners, and stay in that "sweet spot" in the pack. I continued to race at a much reduced volume (twelve races total) and got blown off the back twice, otherwise hung in and finished. Zero time on the bike other than racing, just the erg. Two of the guys I race with bought C2's and there's about 4 or 5 guys that are using them heavily as part of their winter training program.

You'll notice the Masters racing scene is brutally hard! I race 55+ class when it's offered, I usually do better in the open Cat 3 races. The only old guys left are all good! Ex-Olympians, old pros, state champs etc. At least in Cat 3 they're only 3's! Bike racing is different than erging (as you know) as you can derive great pleasure and bragging rights just by finishing (with the pack) a hard Cat 3 race knowing you hung with the kids. Skills and experience mean a lot.

The erg? Not so much. The drop off is amazing. Look at my class. Roy Brooks holds the WR at 6:38. I can go to any high school erg event and find 20 or more kids pulling faster than that. I went head to head with the trainer at our gym (all in fun) at 1000m, I pulled a PR 3:21, ranks me 4th (as I re-call) in the world
in 55-59 LWT . The trainer, Dean pulls 3:09. The guy is quite the specimen, but he only ergs a coupla times a week. Somebody will win the hammer in my class this year with a 6:45-ish time(won't be me!). 30 or 40 guys in the 30 year old class will beat that.

The erg is the ultimate fitness polygraph. The myth of the old man beating up on the youngsters is just that. However......that youngster better be training! The other side of that coin is how we stack up against the average young gym rat; many times we can give 'em a run for their money. Also, compare yourself to your peers. I mean really, how many guys our age do you know that could come anywhere near a 7 min 2k? Take pride in the fact that you are probably in the top 1% (fitness wise) of the population over 55. And it's not a stretch that you're probably in the top 20% to 30% of men over age 30.

And.....I guess that's why we do it!

(NOTE: You may remember Joe Saling, he's still around and as of last year was still keeping up with the pack in the 45+ races .... at age 74!)

[Hillclimber]

Jan. ctc cross-team challenge: 5 x '3, max total rest '6
4365m 1:43.1 (pm3 showed 1:43 flat)
began at my target 5k pace and neg split from there:
1:44, rest 1:10
1:43.6, rest 1:20
1:43, rest 1:40
1:42.7, rest 1:50
1:41.8

interesting drill, time intervals vs distance. obviously they're good for team workouts. but takes some adjustment after strictly distance-based work and the encouraging meter count down that is the very tangible effort payoff. watching the clock, as above for the final two intervals, it appeared the pm3 timer was in slow motion.

[Hillclimber]

Another go at the c2c challenge noted above, 5x 3:00, with max rest 6:00. for starting point i used my avg time from the previous attempt. details:
4420m 1:41.8
1:43
1:41.9
1:41.3
1:40.8
1:41.8

generally pleased with the 12 watt improvement, about 4%. reached a new season HR max in that last one. May be my last try at this as I'm focusing on 750m and 1k repeats with 4:00-5:00 rest for my AT TR work through Feb. in prep for crash-b.

damien